Greg Smith

George, I've got a question about your line through ricochet. Are you intentionally using the apex curbing at ricochet or was that just a little misjudgment? It doesn't seem worth it as is looks like it upsets the car a decent amount.

George A

Greg, I f'd up.... You know you aim the car to hit the curbing but you hope that it scrubs enough just to miss it. Sometimes it works and others it can get pretty nasty. I think I went through there sideways with Gene in the car once.

G.

Veloce Raptor

I did that once on Sunday with Craig Jannsen in the car. Had a nice little el dorifto atop the hill there. He applauded LOL!

KurtC

Does this help any?

http://www.vimeo.com/1806752

himself

Russ,

Here is something that realy helped my toilet bowling. Keith Olcha showed me this many moons ago.

When you set up for the leap of faith, plan to come over the hill track left. You can orient/check your line, with the big tree in the background. Taking this line allows you to be on power from the crest down the hill, while you give a little steering input to the right - which points you at curbing on the right and allows you to brake in a straight(er) line towards the cone. Power on at turn in and your golden from there.

To use this line, I have to give a small lift at turn in before the leap of faith. Not sure if this is the line VR and G-spot run, but it has worked well for me. AND, if you come in too hot, you end up running the line you are currently running now That is, if you have more speed as you turn in for the leap of faith, you can't get turned far enough, and end up pointing mid track over the crest.

BTW, I am usually wrong, but this is my free assessment. You have your money's worth now

Here's what I mean:






-td

Veloce Raptor

Kurt, that is somewhat helpful, thanks!

TD, that sounds good, except I hate using trees. They can get cut down, blown down in a storm, and die. I just use the track!

mpaton

George, I just watched it. I agree that once the car settles after the crest you can start loading the Gs.

What upsets the car is letting it go light, right at the crest when pulling lateral Gs, and that is what I suggest people don't do, at least until they are very comfortable with their car being light while turning.

What I got from your video, and what Russell's frames from your video show is that you straighten the steering wheel somewhat while you go over the crest, but you don't straighten it completely. There's nothing wrong with that for you; but I think people intent on going flat over the hill should start out with zero lateral Gs.

and BTW George I do still have my 911, even if it's been retired from regular track use.

I'm a little surprised that you can wait till the depression tp brake, but then your car is slightly down on power relative to a 3.6 996, and you do have all that heavy race gear in it, so probably that accounts for it.

My suggestion for you to try from watching your video, (in the context that lines around the toilet bowl are still evolving) is:

I see you're using the double apex method in the video. Assuming that's your current line, and not just an adaptation due to the debris on entry, then try making the first apex at the curb as you already do, and then proceed as before except don't try so hard to bring the car into the right side for the second apex. Miss the second apex, let the car come over to the left, while still staying on track. I've seen some good results with this in cases where cars are generating a lot of front tire scrub to make the second apex. If you're getting that tire scrub, then you can stay on track, and release some power from tire scrub and accelerate more.

The difference will be slight; you may need a data logger to see a difference; you may have tried it before, and decided it didn't work for you; that's all good. And I'm not claiming it's a much better line :-)

Michael

himself

Roger that. Not saying that trees beat experience, but until you get a good feel, that tree is mighty helpful. FWIW, that tree has been there for at least the last 2 years

-td

mpaton

I agree (with both your points). :-)

But to me being "close, just a nuance away" is worlds apart from "I can show you much better lines".

And to summarize,

What's a safe way tp learn how to carry more power over the hill into the Toilet Bowl?

A well driven NA 996 with some suspension mods can do this.

That doesn't mean anybody with one of those cars can read this on Rennlist and instantly do it safely.

For the average Yellow/White student to learn how to do it, I believe there are 2 requirements.

a The steering wheel will be straight while cresting the hill until the car's weight is full restored to the tires.

b The student must aim the car up the hill so that as it crests the hill going straight, it will stay on track after it lands, and while it brakes.

Part b is the difficult part. I agree with you that I prefer to use the track picture, and not trees or other things that can change. It takes practice, and time. I've paid for a little plastic aero bit that fit on the rear of the rocker panels, when I landed aimed too far to the right, and drove off the right side of the track. And what you see in Russell's video is him calibrating his sight picture so he can have the confidence that he will need when it comes time to stay on the power for longer.

When I last climbed out of Russell's car I believe he understood how to approach and work towards what is wanted up the hill into the toilet bowl. Nothing in his video changes my view of that. He's still working on it. When he's mastered it, he may well end up producing videos that you will like better. His car is not unstable turning right and left before the crest. Once he knows exactly where to place the car laterally on the track at the crest, and where to point it, then he very likely will have less exaggerated motions going up the hill.

Michael

Veloce Raptor

I agree with this. This can work very well, and I use it, too.

George A

Here is the picture I was talking to you about.... One of may favorites.

G.

George A

Well boys, I'm going to disagree with both of you..... I expect a little more from you "advanced" instructors.

Both of you watch there two videos of the last PCA CR there:
http://vimeo.com/1807864 - Watkins, Van Horn and me.....
http://vimeo.com/1807902 - Olcha, Buckley and me.....

Do you guys notice anything interesting in the toilet bowl in the videos? We all use different lines but no one gains a clear advantage. Measure it from entry into 9 to entry into 10, that's what really matters. You can talk you want about that portion of the track, but I don't think there's anything to gain (only to lose from screw ups). My recommendation is to do what "you" feel comfortable doing.

G.

Veloce Raptor

G, with respect, videos like that don't show much that's relevant, like throttle position, etc. Two may have been at WOT and one at 7/8 throttle but with a better line. We need data to prove your point.

In the abstract I believe you are correct, but I also believe different cars reward different lines...and cars change throughout the session/race, and the smart drover changes lines to extract the maximum from a changing car.

George A

Michael,

I do not have a preferred line through the toilet bowl. I use what works for that session. That portion of the track has a tendency to change during the day (sometimes during the session...).

G.

mpaton

Good approach George. All my qualifications on line suggestions were because 1 video doesn't tell the whole story.

Michael