Maverick PCA at MSR (3.1) Sept 20-21
09-25-2008, 12:19 AM
#331
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Oops, looks like it's my bedtime!
09-25-2008, 12:25 AM
#332
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I've just caught up on all these shenanigans and have the following to worthlessly add
Data is good- the better you get, the more you need it to help you improve. It's been big for me to see professional driver's data overlaid with mine. George- don't be technophobic. The biggest thing data does for a new on the scene guy- it shows if you're consistent. if your lap times vary 1-5 seconds with no rhyme or reason, that's problematic. good drivers get to their limit right out the gate and stay as close as possible as long as possible. my general DE/trackday driving ethos is to go as fast as possible especially on cold tires. most DE guys need to see that their car can still handle towards the limit after about 1 mile of the track-
correct me if I'm wrong- but if you plan to race, you better plan to go fast on the first lap on cold tires.
Toilet bowl (T9) is a corner that separates lower level and mid level DE people from each other. Pros or the highest echelon club guys aren't intimidated by it to the same degree, and therefore don't lose much ground there to lowly bmw and miata drivers.
In every car I've driven at MSR- Mx5 cup, 993TT, GT3RS, Formula Mazda, 944, you brake really damn hard into the compression- the further you are to the right (on the curb nearly) the easier it is!
equally important is coming off the brakes in a manner that transfers weight to the outside wheels to help it corner without scrubbing the front tires- forget speed differences, if you overcook your tires, you're not gonna do yourself any favors later in the session/race/day...
Turn 10 exit speed is 1st or 2nd most important gain/lose corner in the 3.1 configuration in regards to lap times. .1 seconds better there leads to gaps of 1, 1.5 or even 2 seconds in a momentum car by the time you come out of buzzards neck or tombstone.
boothill is also very important, but the hairpin (T8) on the 1.3 section is the other most important lap time difference. it's a much more difficult turn and keeping momentum through that going up the hill is key in equal HP scenarios. it forces the trailing or slower car to bog down if they get it wrong, and you never make that gap up again.
see you guys out there in a month or so...
Data is good- the better you get, the more you need it to help you improve. It's been big for me to see professional driver's data overlaid with mine. George- don't be technophobic. The biggest thing data does for a new on the scene guy- it shows if you're consistent. if your lap times vary 1-5 seconds with no rhyme or reason, that's problematic. good drivers get to their limit right out the gate and stay as close as possible as long as possible. my general DE/trackday driving ethos is to go as fast as possible especially on cold tires. most DE guys need to see that their car can still handle towards the limit after about 1 mile of the track-
correct me if I'm wrong- but if you plan to race, you better plan to go fast on the first lap on cold tires.
Toilet bowl (T9) is a corner that separates lower level and mid level DE people from each other. Pros or the highest echelon club guys aren't intimidated by it to the same degree, and therefore don't lose much ground there to lowly bmw and miata drivers.
In every car I've driven at MSR- Mx5 cup, 993TT, GT3RS, Formula Mazda, 944, you brake really damn hard into the compression- the further you are to the right (on the curb nearly) the easier it is!
equally important is coming off the brakes in a manner that transfers weight to the outside wheels to help it corner without scrubbing the front tires- forget speed differences, if you overcook your tires, you're not gonna do yourself any favors later in the session/race/day...
Turn 10 exit speed is 1st or 2nd most important gain/lose corner in the 3.1 configuration in regards to lap times. .1 seconds better there leads to gaps of 1, 1.5 or even 2 seconds in a momentum car by the time you come out of buzzards neck or tombstone.
boothill is also very important, but the hairpin (T8) on the 1.3 section is the other most important lap time difference. it's a much more difficult turn and keeping momentum through that going up the hill is key in equal HP scenarios. it forces the trailing or slower car to bog down if they get it wrong, and you never make that gap up again.
see you guys out there in a month or so...
09-25-2008, 12:56 AM
#334
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CJ,
I'm not a technophobe, I'm all for technology. It's the application that I'm worried about. I agree with your analysis as far as it use. I think the guys here are going overboard. Gaining 0.2 in a section??? I don't think most of us consistent enough to be within 0.2 in a section lap after lap.
I would love to get data of me overlapped by that of a pro's. But where are you going to find pro's locally that drive your car to its limits? Again, at our level with our cars, it's gets a little complicated to get meaningful data.
BTW, you make great points about stuff unrelated to data. Tire and brake management, that is where it's at for me. I'm really focused on braking now. My goal to gain as much as possible from entry to apex without losing ground on exit (I guess data would help there but only after I perfect it).
To me, at MSR, there are four key corners to getting a fast lap: entry into the toilet bowl (9), exit of 10 (someone come up with a name please), Tombstone and Big Bend.
On a final note (I'm almost done with my beer), in racing, it's not the fastest lap that counts, it the fastest for the 15 or so laps of the race. I've won many where I didn't have the fastest lap....
G.
I'm not a technophobe, I'm all for technology. It's the application that I'm worried about. I agree with your analysis as far as it use. I think the guys here are going overboard. Gaining 0.2 in a section??? I don't think most of us consistent enough to be within 0.2 in a section lap after lap.
I would love to get data of me overlapped by that of a pro's. But where are you going to find pro's locally that drive your car to its limits? Again, at our level with our cars, it's gets a little complicated to get meaningful data.
BTW, you make great points about stuff unrelated to data. Tire and brake management, that is where it's at for me. I'm really focused on braking now. My goal to gain as much as possible from entry to apex without losing ground on exit (I guess data would help there but only after I perfect it).
To me, at MSR, there are four key corners to getting a fast lap: entry into the toilet bowl (9), exit of 10 (someone come up with a name please), Tombstone and Big Bend.
On a final note (I'm almost done with my beer), in racing, it's not the fastest lap that counts, it the fastest for the 15 or so laps of the race. I've won many where I didn't have the fastest lap....
G.
09-25-2008, 12:56 AM
#335
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Seriously though, the radical isn't that fast in a straight line, although hardly anybody lifts when they point me by. I'd never get by anybody that way if my braking zone didn't start about 3 car lengths after theirs.
EC has too many straights for me. I'm trying to make the Radical engine last longer by only using 9000rpm instead of 10,500. I discovered last winter that I was ignoring that rule to keep up on the straights because I couldn't get ahead in the turns any more because either it was too cold to heat up my tires, or 75 heat cycles really is too many. That probably doesn't explain the BMW though.
Michael
09-25-2008, 12:58 AM
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Michael
09-25-2008, 01:01 AM
#338
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09-25-2008, 01:11 AM
#339
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I love you guys! Really wish I could have been there! As to the toilet bowl, in the cup, I took basically George's line, flat out so the car was really lose & twitchy over the brow but it was fast & as long as you were on your game, it was all good. Stay flat down the hill & brake HARD under compression at the bottom. The downside though of getting any little bit of this wrong wasn't good so I do agree with Michael that you should use some discretion until you have dialed it in. We had some cupcar carnage in that section last CR there & traffic can make things VERY interesting when you are defending position through there. Also, George is right. That section doesn't drive the same very much over a race weekend.
CJ, Enjoy Cali & keep analyzing those track maps. You can get a lot of work done before you ever turn a wheel on track. Car type also plays a big roll in this in determining whether a corner is more important coming in or going out & how that will affect you down track. I learned a bunch about this @ Road America this year. I had it pretty dialed in in the cup but things play out differently in a slow-mentum mobil. I was over confident going in & fought old habits most of the weekend. Not wrong just wrong for the platform I was driving
CJ, Enjoy Cali & keep analyzing those track maps. You can get a lot of work done before you ever turn a wheel on track. Car type also plays a big roll in this in determining whether a corner is more important coming in or going out & how that will affect you down track. I learned a bunch about this @ Road America this year. I had it pretty dialed in in the cup but things play out differently in a slow-mentum mobil. I was over confident going in & fought old habits most of the weekend. Not wrong just wrong for the platform I was driving
09-25-2008, 04:16 AM
#340
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Jay- I like the way you explain the entry to T9 in the cup, that's pretty much how it feels in the RS. My driving season looks like a lot of fun: Buttonwillow, ECR, Willow Springs, Laguna Seca, Infineon, Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR, Thunderhill...should be a video watching filled few months.
george- data keeps me honest and despite lots of traffic, the majority of my runs were within .5 seconds lap to lap this past weekend, with times dropping for the first few laps and then holding steady until either severe logjams or the checkered flew...it's honest and valuable and the best thing is the way you can use it to create your theoretical fastest lap. it shows just how much tire scrub can hurt your midcorner and exit speed.
If I was on a budget, instead of buying all sorts of aero garbage or HP (like most guys do too often and right away) I'd buy an AIM data system for about $1k or so. Don't forget that using data will actually help you perfect one corner at a time- you can try 10 different approaches and the data won't lie- you'll see what's faster and construct your lapping approach from there.
By the way- I'm all for the "racing lines" rather than the DE line at track, and will even run a few laps off line in order to see if I can still be relatively consistent because as you racers (or me mr. video game generation racer) know that other drivers get in the way all the time!
maybe I should stop being so upfront and helpful- I'll be running against you guys sooner rather than later...lol
george- data keeps me honest and despite lots of traffic, the majority of my runs were within .5 seconds lap to lap this past weekend, with times dropping for the first few laps and then holding steady until either severe logjams or the checkered flew...it's honest and valuable and the best thing is the way you can use it to create your theoretical fastest lap. it shows just how much tire scrub can hurt your midcorner and exit speed.
If I was on a budget, instead of buying all sorts of aero garbage or HP (like most guys do too often and right away) I'd buy an AIM data system for about $1k or so. Don't forget that using data will actually help you perfect one corner at a time- you can try 10 different approaches and the data won't lie- you'll see what's faster and construct your lapping approach from there.
By the way- I'm all for the "racing lines" rather than the DE line at track, and will even run a few laps off line in order to see if I can still be relatively consistent because as you racers (or me mr. video game generation racer) know that other drivers get in the way all the time!
maybe I should stop being so upfront and helpful- I'll be running against you guys sooner rather than later...lol
09-25-2008, 09:19 AM
#341
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09-25-2008, 09:26 AM
#342
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My 2 cents on the value of data:
You guys have discussed it as though there is only one kind, and that it is either relevant or not, no in-between. But if you think of data as a continuum that includes everything that your butt, hands, inner ear, etc. do NOT provide, the continuum is broad enough that it would silly to throw it all out or throw it all in.
Who would choose to go out there w/o a tach, oil pressure gauge, etc. Or how about a pyrometer and tire pressure gauge? These provide the most basic kinds of data, but to the extent that they are used to understand what the driver is doing to the car, they have a role in improving the performance of car+driver.
I am at the point where I've found the optimal operating ranges for tires, rpms, shift points, etc. on a given track, so that kind of data has moved to the background (still used, but attention now limited to anomalies). For you guys, perhaps more so. I've also begun to weed out lap-to-lap inconsistencies in my line, and therefore have something to gain in comparing different lines. Need more data! But until I understand the effect of alternative lines, and that too has moved to the background, I doubt that I'd be capable of discerning other subtle implications of additional data.
Said another way, the value of data (at least to me) is proportional to the degree to which my butt, hands, eyes, ears, etc. are able to discern what's going on on their own. The more I understand what's going on viscerally, the more data I can digest intellectually. Not black or white issue.
As it pertains to the analysis of my approach to the hill before T9, there is probably more to gain (for me) in obtaining more visceral data than any other kind, because as I've told Michael:
1) I clearly remember being full throttle at the crest on most of the laps (use ears and listen to the video).
2) I clearly remember telling myself to wait for compression before braking after the hill. (use eyes and see the bobbing of my helmet forward - well after the hill - and you can deduce that I usually listened to myself).
3) At no time did I remember coming over the crest and realizing that might I come out too close to either edge of the track or have to make adjustments under braking (my butt let me know that I was cresting the hill, but my sphincter wasn't in a panic).
By the same token, if any of you had been in the car with me, you might have similarly been able to discern - viscerally - that the stability of my whole body in the seat was much worse than any stability issue re: the car on the track. (Which was the commentary I provided when initially posting the video). And the former probably contributes to the latter, so thanks especially to Kurt and td.... I'm going to incorporate your seat suggestions ASAP!
You guys have discussed it as though there is only one kind, and that it is either relevant or not, no in-between. But if you think of data as a continuum that includes everything that your butt, hands, inner ear, etc. do NOT provide, the continuum is broad enough that it would silly to throw it all out or throw it all in.
Who would choose to go out there w/o a tach, oil pressure gauge, etc. Or how about a pyrometer and tire pressure gauge? These provide the most basic kinds of data, but to the extent that they are used to understand what the driver is doing to the car, they have a role in improving the performance of car+driver.
I am at the point where I've found the optimal operating ranges for tires, rpms, shift points, etc. on a given track, so that kind of data has moved to the background (still used, but attention now limited to anomalies). For you guys, perhaps more so. I've also begun to weed out lap-to-lap inconsistencies in my line, and therefore have something to gain in comparing different lines. Need more data! But until I understand the effect of alternative lines, and that too has moved to the background, I doubt that I'd be capable of discerning other subtle implications of additional data.
Said another way, the value of data (at least to me) is proportional to the degree to which my butt, hands, eyes, ears, etc. are able to discern what's going on on their own. The more I understand what's going on viscerally, the more data I can digest intellectually. Not black or white issue.
As it pertains to the analysis of my approach to the hill before T9, there is probably more to gain (for me) in obtaining more visceral data than any other kind, because as I've told Michael:
1) I clearly remember being full throttle at the crest on most of the laps (use ears and listen to the video).
2) I clearly remember telling myself to wait for compression before braking after the hill. (use eyes and see the bobbing of my helmet forward - well after the hill - and you can deduce that I usually listened to myself).
3) At no time did I remember coming over the crest and realizing that might I come out too close to either edge of the track or have to make adjustments under braking (my butt let me know that I was cresting the hill, but my sphincter wasn't in a panic).
By the same token, if any of you had been in the car with me, you might have similarly been able to discern - viscerally - that the stability of my whole body in the seat was much worse than any stability issue re: the car on the track. (Which was the commentary I provided when initially posting the video). And the former probably contributes to the latter, so thanks especially to Kurt and td.... I'm going to incorporate your seat suggestions ASAP!
09-25-2008, 09:30 AM
#343
Three Wheelin'
You'll learn a lot running those tracks. What a blast! And lots of seat time which is the key. The best year I had was the year I spent the most time in the car. That's what I need right now in the Box!
Consistency is one of the things I use to judge whether I'm getting a track dialed in. When I can run 3 or more consecutive laps within a tenth or two, then I know I'm getting close. One pretty cool thing last year before I sold the cup was that I ran two back to back, identical to the hundreth! That was a first!
I like data but I agree with George that some people can take it a bit over board @ this level. We are doing this for fun, right? It can help find those tenths though & is great for comparing data driver-to-driver. I just got 6 Traqmates in yesterday for a bunch of the local SPBOX guys so we can start fooling around with it some. I ran AIM in the Cup & it was very useful, especially early on.
Have fun out there & buy John a beer for me
Consistency is one of the things I use to judge whether I'm getting a track dialed in. When I can run 3 or more consecutive laps within a tenth or two, then I know I'm getting close. One pretty cool thing last year before I sold the cup was that I ran two back to back, identical to the hundreth! That was a first!
I like data but I agree with George that some people can take it a bit over board @ this level. We are doing this for fun, right? It can help find those tenths though & is great for comparing data driver-to-driver. I just got 6 Traqmates in yesterday for a bunch of the local SPBOX guys so we can start fooling around with it some. I ran AIM in the Cup & it was very useful, especially early on.
Have fun out there & buy John a beer for me
09-25-2008, 10:21 AM
#344
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CJ's point about folks buying gee gaw add-ons for their cars instead of investing in the loose nut behind the wheel is spot on, IMO. And data is one way (but not the only way) for an advanced driver (like Russell and CJ) to do this. But yes, as Jay said, you can go overboard. I have found the only truly valuable data points for club/DE/race practicing use are speed, lat/long G's, brake position, and throttle position. We had a lot more than that on the pro cars I have raced, but in reality we only looked at the above items unless the car was having problems.
And yes, it's all about seat time seat time seat time. This past weekend was the first time I had been in the left seat in 3 months, and it showed Saturday morning!
PS: Russell, one of the best car mod investments I ever made was a racing seat. I spent more time droving & ZERO time scrabbling to stay in my seat!
And yes, it's all about seat time seat time seat time. This past weekend was the first time I had been in the left seat in 3 months, and it showed Saturday morning!
PS: Russell, one of the best car mod investments I ever made was a racing seat. I spent more time droving & ZERO time scrabbling to stay in my seat!
09-25-2008, 10:57 AM
#345
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But yes, as Jay said, you can go overboard. I have found the only truly valuable data points for club/DE/race practicing use are speed, lat/long G's, brake position, and throttle position. We had a lot more than that on the pro cars I have raced, but in reality we only looked at the above items unless the car was having problems.
More true than you realize. As the mechanic / crew chief on a few cars, as well as a driver, I use the Data to confirm if what the driver is telling me about the car is "car induced" or "driver induced" which is hugely valuable. This stops me from chasing imaginary problems.
Other than that, Data is a great tool and valuable at all levels. It is a tool though and just like a wrench it is only as good/valuable as the human being that is manipulating it. Obviously the more experience you have with it the better you become.