Is the 951 platform still competitive and why?
06-20-2008, 10:55 AM
#31
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06-20-2008, 10:57 AM
#32
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06-20-2008, 12:10 PM
#33
Race Director
To make it worse they throw on a big turbo so the car makes 350 whp without freshening the rest and wonder why it lastesd 10 mintues before breaking something.
The truth is most 911's were never abused the way the 944 or 951 have been so taking an "old 911" and racing it is often simpler upfront since most "old 944 or 951" donor cars were beat to hell and and way behind on standard maintenance.
I have seen this time and time again with the 944 spec cars. Most were bought for under $2k (many under 1k) and need alot of basic work just to make then street worthy not to mention race worthy. However once brought back to a reasoanble standard they prove to be very solid platforms.
06-20-2008, 12:23 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
I wouldnt be too sure about that point. There are many stories about pros driving hopped up cars like this that run slower or at least the same as average club drivers. I remember Pobst running the monster Evo at laguna Seca in a race and enduro for Kent Jordan, a new club racer. Randy, only ran only a tenth or two faster. There are a lot of good club guys that can easily run as fast of a lap time as many pros. The difference, as i have always said, is in the race! Control, strategy, consistancy, tactics, decision making, are what set the pros apart from the good club racer.
Its not only the power level that determines the time, but it sure seems, by the tally of the components that this car could be even faster. a good bench mark is the ALMS GT3RS. 500hp or so, but the most evolved platform in racing today. Sometimes these "monster " race cars need so much in the way of mods and tuning, it might, in the end, be better to just buy a GT3RS from a pro series!
Mk
Its not only the power level that determines the time, but it sure seems, by the tally of the components that this car could be even faster. a good bench mark is the ALMS GT3RS. 500hp or so, but the most evolved platform in racing today. Sometimes these "monster " race cars need so much in the way of mods and tuning, it might, in the end, be better to just buy a GT3RS from a pro series!
Mk
06-20-2008, 12:42 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Not the first. Just basic facts. The 928 with no engine performance mods except a set of headers, can run 1:38.9 at Laguna seca. When a much more prepared 951 raced by Lars Gersling ran in SpeedGT in 2000 it ran a 1:44!
A 928 with some pretty average mods to pump up its HP ran in the top 10 several times in Speed World Challenge GT, even beating one of the caddies, Audies and boris said in a pretty pumped up mustang. (I was in many of those races with my 928 and saw it first hand)
I kind of like using bench marks of known entities. using the Supercup GT3 is a good one because so many of them are runnng by top club and pros in the world today. The porsche 928 as Anderson has set it up, runs about 1-2 seconds faster. (ie 1:31 at laguna vs 1:32 for the newest cup cars).
The real question is not is this 928 better than any 951, because it more than likely is. The question is, what it takes to make the 951 as fast as a 928 with a limited budget and resourses. (along with reliability, etc)
The 928 being a crusier, is in its street form. however, when all the luxury items are removed, you have a stock aluminum body panel'ed, wide, well designed suspesion set up racer that weighs 2700lbs while changing nothing.
Put on a cheap suspension and a set of big tires (no body work needed) and you can run 1:39 at Laguna seca. (or a top time in NASA GTS series.)
Ive always challenged anyone to find a 951 to run near as fast as my 928 for less, and there just hasnt been one. The bench mark I use now, as i have raced door to door with a few of the top 10 speed Touring cars, is that my car is most cases, as fast as today's top 10-15 Speed Touring cars at a track near you. Again, this only about what it takes to get a car together and do some club racing. The 928 has a great track record of reliability and dependability.
100 race days, no DNFs, driven to the track to all races, and for the 7 full racing seasons its raced in, times have never varied by more than 1 second regardless of conditions.
Now, if you want to open your wallet and build a race car with money not being an object, or find a car that fits the bill for a particular class or series, then there will be other things to consider, including personal preference.
Mk
A 928 with some pretty average mods to pump up its HP ran in the top 10 several times in Speed World Challenge GT, even beating one of the caddies, Audies and boris said in a pretty pumped up mustang. (I was in many of those races with my 928 and saw it first hand)
I kind of like using bench marks of known entities. using the Supercup GT3 is a good one because so many of them are runnng by top club and pros in the world today. The porsche 928 as Anderson has set it up, runs about 1-2 seconds faster. (ie 1:31 at laguna vs 1:32 for the newest cup cars).
The real question is not is this 928 better than any 951, because it more than likely is. The question is, what it takes to make the 951 as fast as a 928 with a limited budget and resourses. (along with reliability, etc)
The 928 being a crusier, is in its street form. however, when all the luxury items are removed, you have a stock aluminum body panel'ed, wide, well designed suspesion set up racer that weighs 2700lbs while changing nothing.
Put on a cheap suspension and a set of big tires (no body work needed) and you can run 1:39 at Laguna seca. (or a top time in NASA GTS series.)
Ive always challenged anyone to find a 951 to run near as fast as my 928 for less, and there just hasnt been one. The bench mark I use now, as i have raced door to door with a few of the top 10 speed Touring cars, is that my car is most cases, as fast as today's top 10-15 Speed Touring cars at a track near you. Again, this only about what it takes to get a car together and do some club racing. The 928 has a great track record of reliability and dependability.
100 race days, no DNFs, driven to the track to all races, and for the 7 full racing seasons its raced in, times have never varied by more than 1 second regardless of conditions.
Now, if you want to open your wallet and build a race car with money not being an object, or find a car that fits the bill for a particular class or series, then there will be other things to consider, including personal preference.
Mk
06-20-2008, 01:40 PM
#36
Mark, I believe the question at hand was is the 951 competitive, not "Why does Mark Kibort think the 928 is a better platform". If you'd like to go down the bloated "shark" debate please head over to the 928 or 944 forums.
06-20-2008, 02:31 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
My response started from the first few posts when someone said a Z06 would be a better bang for the buck. There is no debate. There is no car cheaper to build and operate, and as fast as the 928. I think ive proved this over campaiging mine over the past 7 full seasons.
Sure, the 951 can be competitve. It then boils down to the age old questions. how fast do want to go, where do you want to race it and how much money / resources do you have. Every platform has its own trade offs.
Mk
Sure, the 951 can be competitve. It then boils down to the age old questions. how fast do want to go, where do you want to race it and how much money / resources do you have. Every platform has its own trade offs.
Mk
06-20-2008, 02:54 PM
#40
Race Director
Personally I think the 944 NA in 944 spec is the best bang for the buck Porsche racing out there. Sure not alot of top speed, but decient cornering speed and when you are racing top speed and hard accelration is not that big of a deal. An most importantly the price is right. Cheap (at least in racing terms anyway).
The original question was if the 951 could be a competitive racer. Well like I said earlier competitive depends on the rules the car races too. Without knowing that it is impossble to determine if it is competitive. A 951 however can be made into a fine race car that can stand upto racing duty. Heck just like and Porsche (short of the Junior tractor) they all can be made in to race cars with relativly little effort.
The original question was if the 951 could be a competitive racer. Well like I said earlier competitive depends on the rules the car races too. Without knowing that it is impossble to determine if it is competitive. A 951 however can be made into a fine race car that can stand upto racing duty. Heck just like and Porsche (short of the Junior tractor) they all can be made in to race cars with relativly little effort.
06-20-2008, 03:11 PM
#41
Formula One Spin Doctor
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I wouldnt be too sure about that point. There are many stories about pros driving hopped up cars like this that run slower or at least the same as average club drivers. I remember Pobst running the monster Evo at laguna Seca in a race and enduro for Kent Jordan, a new club racer. Randy, only ran only a tenth or two faster. There are a lot of good club guys that can easily run as fast of a lap time as many pros. The difference, as i have always said, is in the race! Control, strategy, consistancy, tactics, decision making, are what set the pros apart from the good club racer.
Its not only the power level that determines the time, but it sure seems, by the tally of the components that this car could be even faster. a good bench mark is the ALMS GT3RS. 500hp or so, but the most evolved platform in racing today. Sometimes these "monster " race cars need so much in the way of mods and tuning, it might, in the end, be better to just buy a GT3RS from a pro series!
Mk
Its not only the power level that determines the time, but it sure seems, by the tally of the components that this car could be even faster. a good bench mark is the ALMS GT3RS. 500hp or so, but the most evolved platform in racing today. Sometimes these "monster " race cars need so much in the way of mods and tuning, it might, in the end, be better to just buy a GT3RS from a pro series!
Mk
Not sure how to comment on this , as i'm not aware of the condition of the evo as raced by Pobst and I'm sure you are not comparing Kent Jordan to Pobst .
My response started from the first few posts when someone said a Z06 would be a better bang for the buck. There is no debate. There is no car cheaper to build and operate, and as fast as the 928. I think ive proved this over campaiging mine over the past 7 full seasons.
Sure, the 951 can be competitve. It then boils down to the age old questions. how fast do want to go, where do you want to race it and how much money / resources do you have. Every platform has its own trade offs.
Mk
Sure, the 951 can be competitve. It then boils down to the age old questions. how fast do want to go, where do you want to race it and how much money / resources do you have. Every platform has its own trade offs.
Mk
It would be a cold day in hell an S2000 ran 2:15 at Sebring muchless beat Roy's 951..........
06-20-2008, 03:20 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Interesting thread. Mark: did you actually run under 1:40 at Sears Point running the "normal" configuration? Sounds iffy to me.
I used to have a 951... evolved into a race car from a street car, but never extensively stripped down. I originally consulted with the guys at KMR and Milledge almost 15 years ago. I also bought some stuff from the guys at Worldwide (and admired their cars from a distance) and spoke many times with Scott Gomes. I could never afford to have Jon Milledge build me a motor, but he helped me a lot and sold me some great stuff-- he is now back in CA and I highly recommend him if you want to race these cars. I did my own engine build which was somewhat described in a couple of issues of Excellence back in the day.
My issue with the 951 was service/maintenance. Unless you modify it quite a bit, it is just a bear to work on. Sure, I know the car raced by Lars that Mark is talking about-- it was owned by one of my friends. He spent $100-150k or more on that car, with Milledge motors and all. It was pretty serviceable after all that mod work. Later the owner and another friend and former student bought a factory GT3 car and did some pro races... got a third at the 24 hours of Daytona. They both started in 951s, and spent gobs of money. In the cse of the $100-150k car, I think he got 2$20k or so for it once sold.
I have a friend that has a factory 951 race car and loves it. I think the cars are great, but you have to decide how fast you want to go and how much work you want to do (or pay for). Dealing with oiling/rod bearings is a part of this. In the end, my car had about 360 bhp but still weighed 3k pounds. I sold it before going to the next steps, and bought a 911 which is easier to work on.
For competition, I like the idea of a more specified 951 class, as opposed to trying to compete a 951 against 911s in PCA.
As for the 928, I think what Mark is doing is great, but he has special circumstances that just don't fit everyone. As far as I know, Mark's interest is SCCA only, and that is not typical for many/most amateur Porsche racers here in the US.
I used to have a 951... evolved into a race car from a street car, but never extensively stripped down. I originally consulted with the guys at KMR and Milledge almost 15 years ago. I also bought some stuff from the guys at Worldwide (and admired their cars from a distance) and spoke many times with Scott Gomes. I could never afford to have Jon Milledge build me a motor, but he helped me a lot and sold me some great stuff-- he is now back in CA and I highly recommend him if you want to race these cars. I did my own engine build which was somewhat described in a couple of issues of Excellence back in the day.
My issue with the 951 was service/maintenance. Unless you modify it quite a bit, it is just a bear to work on. Sure, I know the car raced by Lars that Mark is talking about-- it was owned by one of my friends. He spent $100-150k or more on that car, with Milledge motors and all. It was pretty serviceable after all that mod work. Later the owner and another friend and former student bought a factory GT3 car and did some pro races... got a third at the 24 hours of Daytona. They both started in 951s, and spent gobs of money. In the cse of the $100-150k car, I think he got 2$20k or so for it once sold.
I have a friend that has a factory 951 race car and loves it. I think the cars are great, but you have to decide how fast you want to go and how much work you want to do (or pay for). Dealing with oiling/rod bearings is a part of this. In the end, my car had about 360 bhp but still weighed 3k pounds. I sold it before going to the next steps, and bought a 911 which is easier to work on.
For competition, I like the idea of a more specified 951 class, as opposed to trying to compete a 951 against 911s in PCA.
As for the 928, I think what Mark is doing is great, but he has special circumstances that just don't fit everyone. As far as I know, Mark's interest is SCCA only, and that is not typical for many/most amateur Porsche racers here in the US.
06-22-2008, 09:02 AM
#44
