Video of my wreck at the Glen race
#151
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I will be posting some chop suey moments that I had in the Glen race in the next couple of days. Similar story, the chopper accused me of dive bombing when we were running side by side.
#152
Three Wheelin'
This should be entertaining! I think some people are just scared to death to go around a corner at speed next to somebody
#153
Rennlist Member
Todd, I have had the same feeling you describe, and I think it's a holdover from all the DE days I have done.
When I am passed I think the overtaking car comes back on line aggressively, chopping me so that were I not to lift there would be contact. As I've gotten more experience (and maybe as my car is better recognized?), I push myself to not lift. No contact yet, but the space between my car and the overtaking car as the overtaking car gets back on line is very small. (Understand, though, that in my class bump drafting is not unusual, even among drivers who do not really know each other, so cars are generally close together.) What I am still working on is the other side of the equation--when I overtake a car promptly getting back on line myself.
In DE we give each other a lot of space, side to side and nose to tail. Not so in racing. (Do PCA club racers learn to pass with no more than 6" from the side of the overtaken car to the side of the overtaking car? That's what SCCA race school teaches, and passes are often closer than that.) I'm working on getting my instincts adjusted.
When I am passed I think the overtaking car comes back on line aggressively, chopping me so that were I not to lift there would be contact. As I've gotten more experience (and maybe as my car is better recognized?), I push myself to not lift. No contact yet, but the space between my car and the overtaking car as the overtaking car gets back on line is very small. (Understand, though, that in my class bump drafting is not unusual, even among drivers who do not really know each other, so cars are generally close together.) What I am still working on is the other side of the equation--when I overtake a car promptly getting back on line myself.
In DE we give each other a lot of space, side to side and nose to tail. Not so in racing. (Do PCA club racers learn to pass with no more than 6" from the side of the overtaken car to the side of the overtaking car? That's what SCCA race school teaches, and passes are often closer than that.) I'm working on getting my instincts adjusted.
#154
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I would like to add that I spent the entire second sprint race behind Jess and one of his buddies in a red 911. They were going at it like crazy. At time, I thought they would take each other out. However, I did not know they had over 1000 laps racing against each other, door-to-door. That explains how they were able to race so close. I think I was about 0.5 sec a lap faster during that race but there was no way I could get by. Actually, it was quite entertaining watching them go at it. Very good, clean, hard nosed racing. They should come back next year for sure!!!
#155
Race Director
Yup . . . seems like racing room is in the eye of the beholder. If someone thinks you will flinch first, they will make you flinch. If someone thinks you are not going to move no matter what, they are less likely to try to make you move. Seems to me the best racers are very observant and figure out where everyone else is scared or hesitant, and then scares them a little right there as necessary to get around.
That is one bad thing about the idea of "co-exist". It mean there are 3 types corners. Yours, mine and OURS. I perfer ther rules to say it is either yours or mine. It makes it clearer that when you chop someone or someone chops you.
So go deep in a corner and expect it to be either clearly your or you get chopped. None of this "it was ours and did not give me room". Sameway if you are the lead car. You either give in the corner or strongly take it. If you happen to give room fine, but then be prepared for a fight since "giving" room is perilously close to giving in. Once a good racers gets the "foot in the door" they are not going to give it back.
That is what most rookies lack. The basic understanding when it your corner and when it is not. As such you can feel like it was your corner or had room and the other guy chops you. Then you can turn around and give room and feel like the other guy is just forcing through. Really there is not alot to sway about it as I can't really describe this in words. In the end once you pass and get passed alot you learn when a corner is "yours", when it is "theirs" and when you are infor a side by side fight. You will also learn a key element in racing in that is getting corner when it really was not yours in the first place. Metal games do play an important role as I have pulled of a few passes where I showed the nose, but did not expect to get room to pass. However when the space was made I took full advantage.
#156
Todd, I have had the same feeling you describe, and I think it's a holdover from all the DE days I have done.
When I am passed I think the overtaking car comes back on line aggressively, chopping me so that were I not to lift there would be contact. As I've gotten more experience (and maybe as my car is better recognized?), I push myself to not lift. No contact yet, but the space between my car and the overtaking car as the overtaking car gets back on line is very small. (Understand, though, that in my class bump drafting is not unusual, even among drivers who do not really know each other, so cars are generally close together.) What I am still working on is the other side of the equation--when I overtake a car promptly getting back on line myself.
In DE we give each other a lot of space, side to side and nose to tail. Not so in racing. (Do PCA club racers learn to pass with no more than 6" from the side of the overtaken car to the side of the overtaking car? That's what SCCA race school teaches, and passes are often closer than that.) I'm working on getting my instincts adjusted.
When I am passed I think the overtaking car comes back on line aggressively, chopping me so that were I not to lift there would be contact. As I've gotten more experience (and maybe as my car is better recognized?), I push myself to not lift. No contact yet, but the space between my car and the overtaking car as the overtaking car gets back on line is very small. (Understand, though, that in my class bump drafting is not unusual, even among drivers who do not really know each other, so cars are generally close together.) What I am still working on is the other side of the equation--when I overtake a car promptly getting back on line myself.
In DE we give each other a lot of space, side to side and nose to tail. Not so in racing. (Do PCA club racers learn to pass with no more than 6" from the side of the overtaken car to the side of the overtaking car? That's what SCCA race school teaches, and passes are often closer than that.) I'm working on getting my instincts adjusted.
#157
Rennlist Member
Gary
Not trying to deflect blame at all here. The way I see the video, looking frame by frame, the contact between Bill and I happened much earlier, just after the bridge. I was trying to get back into the train of cars that was on line. I had been forced to move left of where I was comfortable. I thought there was a hole. There wasn't.
Jess
Not trying to deflect blame at all here. The way I see the video, looking frame by frame, the contact between Bill and I happened much earlier, just after the bridge. I was trying to get back into the train of cars that was on line. I had been forced to move left of where I was comfortable. I thought there was a hole. There wasn't.
Jess
#158
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I would like to add that I spent the entire second sprint race behind Jess and one of his buddies in a red 911. They were going at it like crazy. At time, I thought they would take each other out. However, I did not know they had over 1000 laps racing against each other, door-to-door. That explains how they were able to race so close. I think I was about 0.5 sec a lap faster during that race but there was no way I could get by. Actually, it was quite entertaining watching them go at it. Very good, clean, hard nosed racing. They should come back next year for sure!!!
#159
Race Director
It is interesting because many of 944 spec racers have been racing each other hard in the same cars for 4-5 years. We know each other really well and the same goes for the tracks and our cars. As such some of moves look insane to others around us who don't know and being the local class director I hear stories about newer people thinking nasty wreck was just about to happen. Yet inside the car we are having a blast racing very hard yet also very comfortably.
#160
Chris, that is certainly part of the equation, but when I say chopped, I mean coming down onto you when your front wheel is in front of their rear wheel, and I mean sometimes significantly . . . so contact would be inevitable if no evasive maneuver is taken. If there were no 13/13 and I were loaded, I would be tempted to just call the bluff and not back out or lift. But since I did not want to get a 13 or cause damage to my car (or anybody else's for that matter), I typically did what needed to be done to avoid contact. The places where it was the worst was from the chute through T9 at Summit, for example (and moreso in PCA club races than in 44 cup).
After their review of the video, I learned to stay behind and maintain some momentum so that I could pass them on the next straight. And, if I were to pass, to stay behind as long as I possibly could and pull out at the last instant to conserve as much drafting as possible.
Fortunately, I got this advice on Friday after the fun race and I was able to apply it in the sprint race. Well, let me say that passing was a TON easier. There seemed to be no confusion about what was going to happen in the corner. And, if somebody intended to keep me from passing, it was also pretty obvious.
On that note, if you are going into the corner with somebody behind you and you take the normal DE line, aren't you basically telling them that you expect them to pass there. If you don't want them to pass, you should protect the line, right?
#161
Jess,
I made the comment about seeing a lot of issues with your car over the weekend. By "a lot" I meant two for me and one communicated to me by another driver. I also heard a few comments from other drivers that "the colorado guys are nuts, must be all the oxygen down here at sea level".
I'm one of the slower guys out there (turning mid to low 2:20's) and have the luxury of having in and out of class cars coming by me at all sorts of speeds.
On two occasions you made pretty aggressive moves on me, a significantly slower car. It's not the end of the world and it in no way detracted from my experience this past weekend. It probably made me a better racer. That's why I kept my post pretty simple. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't anything I did because there are usually 1-2 people per day who hunt me down in the paddock to thank me for giving them room. I usually get a good wave from the front runners when the lapping begins. However, there's always the chance that I did something stupid. It wouldn't be the first time that's for sure!
One of my good friends in PCA racing chopped me pretty hard a few years ago (before we knew each other) when I was even more of a moving chicane and now we get a good chuckle out of it. Maybe the same will hold true for you and I in the future!
I made the comment about seeing a lot of issues with your car over the weekend. By "a lot" I meant two for me and one communicated to me by another driver. I also heard a few comments from other drivers that "the colorado guys are nuts, must be all the oxygen down here at sea level".
I'm one of the slower guys out there (turning mid to low 2:20's) and have the luxury of having in and out of class cars coming by me at all sorts of speeds.
On two occasions you made pretty aggressive moves on me, a significantly slower car. It's not the end of the world and it in no way detracted from my experience this past weekend. It probably made me a better racer. That's why I kept my post pretty simple. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't anything I did because there are usually 1-2 people per day who hunt me down in the paddock to thank me for giving them room. I usually get a good wave from the front runners when the lapping begins. However, there's always the chance that I did something stupid. It wouldn't be the first time that's for sure!
One of my good friends in PCA racing chopped me pretty hard a few years ago (before we knew each other) when I was even more of a moving chicane and now we get a good chuckle out of it. Maybe the same will hold true for you and I in the future!
#162
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The right side of Leftville
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
All good points, mind you, but I'll go back to my original post (a.k.a. = hijacking) and say: If this is "gentleman racing and PCA rookie school preaches yield the corner unless you are at least up to the door" why would there ever be two through the corner a.k.a. side by side. Seems counter intuitive.
My overriding issue here is that PCA needs to clarify the rule strongly so that events like the one discussed here are avoided. Either side by side racing through corners, or black flags for those who run afoul of the rule.
My overriding issue here is that PCA needs to clarify the rule strongly so that events like the one discussed here are avoided. Either side by side racing through corners, or black flags for those who run afoul of the rule.
#163
Jess,
I made the comment about seeing a lot of issues with your car over the weekend. By "a lot" I meant two for me and one communicated to me by another driver. I also heard a few comments from other drivers that "the colorado guys are nuts, must be all the oxygen down here at sea level".
I'm one of the slower guys out there (turning mid to low 2:20's) and have the luxury of having in and out of class cars coming by me at all sorts of speeds.
On two occasions you made pretty aggressive moves on me, a significantly slower car. It's not the end of the world and it in no way detracted from my experience this past weekend. It probably made me a better racer. That's why I kept my post pretty simple. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't anything I did because there are usually 1-2 people per day who hunt me down in the paddock to thank me for giving them room. I usually get a good wave from the front runners when the lapping begins. However, there's always the chance that I did something stupid. It wouldn't be the first time that's for sure!
One of my good friends in PCA racing chopped me pretty hard a few years ago (before we knew each other) when I was even more of a moving chicane and now we get a good chuckle out of it. Maybe the same will hold true for you and I in the future!
I made the comment about seeing a lot of issues with your car over the weekend. By "a lot" I meant two for me and one communicated to me by another driver. I also heard a few comments from other drivers that "the colorado guys are nuts, must be all the oxygen down here at sea level".
I'm one of the slower guys out there (turning mid to low 2:20's) and have the luxury of having in and out of class cars coming by me at all sorts of speeds.
On two occasions you made pretty aggressive moves on me, a significantly slower car. It's not the end of the world and it in no way detracted from my experience this past weekend. It probably made me a better racer. That's why I kept my post pretty simple. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't anything I did because there are usually 1-2 people per day who hunt me down in the paddock to thank me for giving them room. I usually get a good wave from the front runners when the lapping begins. However, there's always the chance that I did something stupid. It wouldn't be the first time that's for sure!
One of my good friends in PCA racing chopped me pretty hard a few years ago (before we knew each other) when I was even more of a moving chicane and now we get a good chuckle out of it. Maybe the same will hold true for you and I in the future!
Anyway, I hope you will please approach me in the future if I do anything that makes you at all uncomfortable on the track and I will do the same for you. I'd much rather clear the air immediately at the track, man to man (or woman) than be airing this somewhat dirty laundry over a public forum on Tuesday.
Take care,
Jess
#164
#165
All good points, mind you, but I'll go back to my original post (a.k.a. = hijacking) and say: If this is "gentleman racing and PCA rookie school preaches yield the corner unless you are at least up to the door" why would there ever be two through the corner a.k.a. side by side. Seems counter intuitive.
My overriding issue here is that PCA needs to clarify the rule strongly so that events like the one discussed here are avoided. Either side by side racing through corners, or black flags for those who run afoul of the rule.
My overriding issue here is that PCA needs to clarify the rule strongly so that events like the one discussed here are avoided. Either side by side racing through corners, or black flags for those who run afoul of the rule.