Harnesses or don't use harnesses if no roll bar
03-03-2008, 10:00 PM
#61
just bought the gt3 seats ...still sticking with the BK harness MOUNT, not harness guide which is certified
http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/r1030.php to handle DOT seat belt anchorage requirements...since i still street the car some...6 pt harness installed and awaiting the hans device...
this thread was very helpful and certainly helped me decide to make the next right move for my needs..
interestingly a friend has the tequiptment roll bar and it is NOT thick enough to race...interesting that many use this bar and it is not safe enough to race with? i believe it was in PCA that he was told this...or maybe need a cage?
harness mount, 6 pt harness and race seats works for me...i only have maybe 40 DE days in my 997s and still screeching ps2's.. mostly sebring and homestead...perhaps when i start getting to some of the faster tracks, will get rollbar...
personally, driving in FL with the many elderly (don't mean to offend anyone
) partially blind slow reflexed drivers, should wear a helmet
again, thanks for the great advice as i originally was going to do some suspension mods first....
one day will have the time to get me a dedicated track car ..
MDRUMS , ORLANDO L, hope to see you at sebring..will be there march, april may june etc mostly chin..
i'm the asain guy in the black 997s
mk
http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/r1030.php to handle DOT seat belt anchorage requirements...since i still street the car some...6 pt harness installed and awaiting the hans device...
this thread was very helpful and certainly helped me decide to make the next right move for my needs..
interestingly a friend has the tequiptment roll bar and it is NOT thick enough to race...interesting that many use this bar and it is not safe enough to race with? i believe it was in PCA that he was told this...or maybe need a cage?
harness mount, 6 pt harness and race seats works for me...i only have maybe 40 DE days in my 997s and still screeching ps2's.. mostly sebring and homestead...perhaps when i start getting to some of the faster tracks, will get rollbar...
personally, driving in FL with the many elderly (don't mean to offend anyone
) partially blind slow reflexed drivers, should wear a helmet again, thanks for the great advice as i originally was going to do some suspension mods first....
one day will have the time to get me a dedicated track car ..
MDRUMS , ORLANDO L, hope to see you at sebring..will be there march, april may june etc mostly chin..
i'm the asain guy in the black 997s
mk
03-04-2008, 12:28 AM
#62
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mkk2 see you there I will be back at the track for the Chin April 12-13 event. I'm the 6'5" guy with the silver leg...can't miss me! I will look for you too.
03-04-2008, 07:53 AM
#63
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It is a gernalazation, but I thought that went without saying. Of course you can't say it presents a danger in every vehicle accident. You're kidding youself if you think body parts can't come in contact with a rollbar in a violent impact.
03-04-2008, 09:56 AM
#64
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For example the roof edge above the door (that's less than 2" more away from the driver than if there is a roll cage). At least in a 993 that part of the car is not any softer than a roll cage with padding.
How about some special cars such as 993 RSR, or pretty much anything from RUF that have full cage and are perfectly street legal and approved?
03-04-2008, 10:26 AM
#66
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There is an added safety aspect as well to having a rollbar along with the extra stuff for your body to come in contact with. Your kidding yourself when you only look at the negatives of having something. If you did that with everything you would never take any medication as they all have some negative side-effects.
As it has been discussed many times before (more often with the subject of rollcages) you should go back and read those threads. One thing you will learn in those threads is that noone has done the science to support either side of the argument. Until that is done making blazingly general statement like you did does nothing but contribute to the lack of knowledge about the subject.
So until the studies are done and less scientific arm waving takes place the individual must learn as much as they can and make an informed decision.
03-04-2008, 10:40 AM
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Your response is a complete summation of my "scant" or succinct posting. Thanks. 
Considering all that has been thoughtfully written on this subject, the "blanket" statement about rollbar safety in a street car is indicative of little thought and/or not reading this or any other thread on the topic.
Considering all that has been thoughtfully written on this subject, the "blanket" statement about rollbar safety in a street car is indicative of little thought and/or not reading this or any other thread on the topic.
Your response could have been intepreted many ways, but I was betting on the above.
For the record... again, adding tubing adds a certain amount of risk. There is just no way around that. How much risk it adds and how much you are willing to accept is WIDE open.
03-04-2008, 11:23 AM
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Ahem...
Both guys who made quickie statements knew there was more involved, but tried to avoid the voluminous detail. It can't be done, and in order to avoid misinformation, SHOULD not be done. That is why a lot of my posts are so tediously long. In order to do a topic like this justice, you HAVE to expound. It is far too murky to do otherwise. NONE of the statements made previously are accurate.
The truth is that putting tubing inside a car makes it more safe for extreme usage, and less safe for anything else. Can you get hurt hitting the exisiting interior structure? Yes. However, if you are inclined to believe that a well padded cage tube is equal to a standard sheetmetal structure, you are absolutely delusional. Let me give you a simple test.
Take a sledge hammer. Give a good swing at the roof just on the drip rail area of any car you care to think of. The 993 from Finn's post will do nicely. Then, take that same hammer and swing at the side hoop of a roll cage that is attached at its base plates. You will not believe the difference. The tin roof will completely absorb the impact, and deform proportionally to the power of your swing, where the tubing structure will reject your effort violently, and likely loose some of your fillings in the process.
In my former career as a damage appraiser, I have seen many cars where occupants were partially or fully ejected from cars. They don't always fly neatly through a window opening, kids. One car I appraised had a passenger ejected THROUGH the windshield POST, tearing it OFF the top of the cowl. If this had been a steel roll cage tube, they never would have escaped. Never. Would they live in either case, given either material? Most likely not. However, the chance of survivability is far higher with the structure that stands to deform the most. In the case of sheetmetal -vs tubing, the percentages are massively lopsided.
Hitting the inside of the interior is what kills most people in a rollover. The two factors are the solidity of the structure, and the contour of its shape. Where you hit, is as important as what you hit. A stock roof is nowhere near as strong nor as irregularly shaped as the same car with tubing installed. Hitting a tube structure will progress most of those people from variously injured to stone DEAD.
Again, tubing in a car does stand to increase the safety for extreme usage - meaning the track, with helmets - but makes it less safe for everything else. That is the end of the Black & White. From there - how much you stand to be injured by it - is all grey.
Both guys who made quickie statements knew there was more involved, but tried to avoid the voluminous detail. It can't be done, and in order to avoid misinformation, SHOULD not be done. That is why a lot of my posts are so tediously long. In order to do a topic like this justice, you HAVE to expound. It is far too murky to do otherwise. NONE of the statements made previously are accurate.
The truth is that putting tubing inside a car makes it more safe for extreme usage, and less safe for anything else. Can you get hurt hitting the exisiting interior structure? Yes. However, if you are inclined to believe that a well padded cage tube is equal to a standard sheetmetal structure, you are absolutely delusional. Let me give you a simple test.
Take a sledge hammer. Give a good swing at the roof just on the drip rail area of any car you care to think of. The 993 from Finn's post will do nicely. Then, take that same hammer and swing at the side hoop of a roll cage that is attached at its base plates. You will not believe the difference. The tin roof will completely absorb the impact, and deform proportionally to the power of your swing, where the tubing structure will reject your effort violently, and likely loose some of your fillings in the process.
In my former career as a damage appraiser, I have seen many cars where occupants were partially or fully ejected from cars. They don't always fly neatly through a window opening, kids. One car I appraised had a passenger ejected THROUGH the windshield POST, tearing it OFF the top of the cowl. If this had been a steel roll cage tube, they never would have escaped. Never. Would they live in either case, given either material? Most likely not. However, the chance of survivability is far higher with the structure that stands to deform the most. In the case of sheetmetal -vs tubing, the percentages are massively lopsided.
Hitting the inside of the interior is what kills most people in a rollover. The two factors are the solidity of the structure, and the contour of its shape. Where you hit, is as important as what you hit. A stock roof is nowhere near as strong nor as irregularly shaped as the same car with tubing installed. Hitting a tube structure will progress most of those people from variously injured to stone DEAD.
Again, tubing in a car does stand to increase the safety for extreme usage - meaning the track, with helmets - but makes it less safe for everything else. That is the end of the Black & White. From there - how much you stand to be injured by it - is all grey.
Last edited by RedlineMan; 03-04-2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason: tpyos & spelung
03-05-2008, 09:32 AM
#71
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03-05-2008, 09:37 AM
#72
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Ahem...
Both guys who made quickie statements knew there was more involved, but tried to avoid the voluminous detail. It can't be done, and in order to avoid misinformation, SHOULD not be done. That is why a lot of my posts are so tediously long. In order to do a topic like this justice, you HAVE to expound. It is far too murky to do otherwise. NONE of the statements made previously are accurate.
The truth is that putting tubing inside a car makes it more safe for extreme usage, and less safe for anything else. Can you get hurt hitting the exisiting interior structure? Yes. However, if you are inclined to believe that a well padded cage tube is equal to a standard sheetmetal structure, you are absolutely delusional. Let me give you a simple test.
Take a sledge hammer. Give a good swing at the roof just on the drip rail area of any car you care to think of. The 993 from Finn's post will do nicely. Then, take that same hammer and swing at the side hoop of a roll cage that is attached at its base plates. You will not believe the difference. The tin roof will completely absorb the impact, and deform proportionally to the power of your swing, where the tubing structure will reject your effort violently, and likely loose some of your fillings in the process.
In my former career as a damage appraiser, I have seen many cars where occupants were partially or fully ejected from cars. They don't always fly neatly through a window opening, kids. One car I appraised had a passenger ejected THROUGH the windshield POST, tearing it OFF the top of the cowl. If this had been a steel roll cage tube, they never would have escaped. Never. Would they live in either case, given either material? Most likely not. However, the chance of survivability is far higher with the structure that stands to deform the most. In the case of sheetmetal -vs tubing, the percentages are massively lopsided.
Hitting the inside of the interior is what kills most people in a rollover. The two factors are the solidity of the structure, and the contour of its shape. Where you hit, is as important as what you hit. A stock roof is nowhere near as strong nor as irregularly shaped as the same car with tubing installed. Hitting a tube structure will progress most of those people from variously injured to stone DEAD.
Again, tubing in a car does stand to increase the safety for extreme usage - meaning the track, with helmets - but makes it less safe for everything else. That is the end of the Black & White. From there - how much you stand to be injured by it - is all grey.
Both guys who made quickie statements knew there was more involved, but tried to avoid the voluminous detail. It can't be done, and in order to avoid misinformation, SHOULD not be done. That is why a lot of my posts are so tediously long. In order to do a topic like this justice, you HAVE to expound. It is far too murky to do otherwise. NONE of the statements made previously are accurate.
The truth is that putting tubing inside a car makes it more safe for extreme usage, and less safe for anything else. Can you get hurt hitting the exisiting interior structure? Yes. However, if you are inclined to believe that a well padded cage tube is equal to a standard sheetmetal structure, you are absolutely delusional. Let me give you a simple test.
Take a sledge hammer. Give a good swing at the roof just on the drip rail area of any car you care to think of. The 993 from Finn's post will do nicely. Then, take that same hammer and swing at the side hoop of a roll cage that is attached at its base plates. You will not believe the difference. The tin roof will completely absorb the impact, and deform proportionally to the power of your swing, where the tubing structure will reject your effort violently, and likely loose some of your fillings in the process.
In my former career as a damage appraiser, I have seen many cars where occupants were partially or fully ejected from cars. They don't always fly neatly through a window opening, kids. One car I appraised had a passenger ejected THROUGH the windshield POST, tearing it OFF the top of the cowl. If this had been a steel roll cage tube, they never would have escaped. Never. Would they live in either case, given either material? Most likely not. However, the chance of survivability is far higher with the structure that stands to deform the most. In the case of sheetmetal -vs tubing, the percentages are massively lopsided.
Hitting the inside of the interior is what kills most people in a rollover. The two factors are the solidity of the structure, and the contour of its shape. Where you hit, is as important as what you hit. A stock roof is nowhere near as strong nor as irregularly shaped as the same car with tubing installed. Hitting a tube structure will progress most of those people from variously injured to stone DEAD.
Again, tubing in a car does stand to increase the safety for extreme usage - meaning the track, with helmets - but makes it less safe for everything else. That is the end of the Black & White. From there - how much you stand to be injured by it - is all grey.
07-28-2008, 12:21 PM
#73
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You guys all have me so scared I'm just going to stay home and sim race while wearing my tinfoil helmet!!!
