Craig 88

My take on the new rules is that they are going to make it much more expensive to stay highly competitive. It is very cheap to lighten a car to improve the weight/HP ratio. Suspension work isn't cheap but it is reasonable. Now the only way to optimize your chances is going to be by exotic engine work to increase HP/liter, and we all know that this is the most expensive part of the race car to have developed. It also is going to be worse on the 944s than 911s because Porsche has done all the development work on 911 engines and we 944 guys are paying for the R&D on our motors ourselves, not to mention the failures.

97C2s911

I'm not very knowledgable about taking weight out of a 944 but a 911 that starts as a street car to get down to 2000# starts getting pretty expensive just about everything needs to be fiberglass roof and all and getting to 1800# seems pretty creative. I haven't heard yet where anyone has benefited from the new rules . I think parity is a great goal but have issues with a 2450# 3.8 in the same class as a 2200 # 3.4.

97C2s911

Now the only way to optimize your chances is going to be by exotic engine work to increase HP/liter, and we all know that this is the most expensive part of the race car to have developed. It also is going to be worse on the 944s than 911s because Porsche has done all the development work on 911 engines and we 944 guys are paying for the R&D on our motors ourselves, not to mention the failures.[/QUOTE]
So why not more defined class breaks . In looking at POC the appearto have alot of classes maybe that's why

97C2s911

So does this mean that we are going to weighed after every race

Geoffrey

Help me understand why you think this is different than before. Under the old class structure, you had a maximum displacement rule, so if you take GT3 for instance, the engine displacement range was from 2.808l to 3.4l. To be competitive in that class, you needed to run a 3.4l engine. And, the fastest cars were the cars with the most HP/l at 3.4 displacement. And, those cars were also run at the lightest weight.

In the new classification, you could take that same 3.4l car and ADD weight which costs almost nothing and drop down a class to be more competitive.

I think you guys are thinking about it all wrong, but I'm willing to be educated as to why you think how you think. I believe the fact is that the top cars in each of the classes had a) HP/L maximized for the displacement, b) ran a very lightweight chassis, c) had expensive suspension and revised pickup points. Help me understand if that was not the case. If it was the case, then the new classification does not change much except to give you additional choices ie add weight and drop down a class.

The cars with class winning potential have always been the ones that are the most highly developed and as such are the most expensive. Welcome to open class rules racing...I suspect it has always been that way. The new rules at least afford some options you didn't have before.

I would think that you would be weighed under the same circumstances that a stock car would be weighed. At a) the discression of the scrutineer, b) by protest, c) by class, d) by finishing position, e) any anomoly that might be noticed, etc.

Larry Herman

I agree with Geoffrey and want to add that the new formula gives many more options as to what can be a competitive setup within each class.

97C2s911

I guess my dilemna has to do with a personal approach to what I have been working towards with my car having spent alot of time energy and money to get the car situated in a class where you and you're competitors can pretty much do the $ per second equation differences between cars . Now the playing field has been redefined and made changes that it seems will again cost money to realign the class.
My bringing up this topic is just to get some insight into a situation that I'm not quite understanding and wondering what others are seeing pros and cons.
The advise to add a few pounds and go into GT4 is a good answer to the dilemna and maybe that's where this will go . I know for me that since my journey has been to work on getting lighter it feels like a step backwards.
All this is personal opinion on my part and at the end of the day I just want to be on the track class or no class doesn't really matter it's about the driving and the experience.

Geoffrey

I understand what you are saying. This is a wholesale change to a classing structure in a hobby where people have spent lots of money in building the car to an existing set of rules. Some may even have the "it car" for a particular class. Now that the rules have changed, it affects everyone differently. Some may fit in better than before, some worse. Further, the "it car" of yesterday may not be the "it car" of today. It may be competitive again by further development, or it might never be competitive. As I've said before, I would recommend taking a wait and see approach to see how things fall out. If you do anything, do the least expensive thing (add weight) to put yourself in the best possible class position for 2008. Reevaluate after seeing who your competitors are.

kurt M

Simple systems that work are best. If the 1.3 turbo rule was busted it should have been fixed. Porsche has spent 50 years tweeking the 911 and it still wins. What was wrong with tweeking GT a little?

Build your own light car from scratch, plug in good well built but not to the max motor that lasts a season or more and drive well outlasting the boom boom motors. Win some or at least end up above the crease and on a working mans budget. Other cars in class drive somewhat the same a they follow the light and power = fast method = good driving battles Now you can have heavy *** large motored cars in lower classes that scoot the straights and get wide in the corners. Win with the right foot. Light car guy works his *** off passing a guy only to have him repass every time on the straight with his right foot alone. Light weight is now bad as you can ajust weight with the motor. I understand the reasons and see that this will open up GT for many more combinations. Was such a wholesale shake up needed?

MJR911

Can't please everyone. I believe the scruts had the best in mind regarding the majority and the future of GT racing in PCA. We'll see how Sebring goes and bring this thread back.

kurt M

No you can't please everyone but you sure can **** them off.

M758

In the old days of GT no mater the class you ALWAYS needed lots of motor to be really competitive. The only way you did not need lots of motor was if you had no competition. In the old system GT4 cars needs about 300 hp from 2.8L to be "on pace". GT3 Cars needed at least 350 for a light car if not 450 hp to be on pace (from 3.4 or 2.6L Turbo). GT1 needed 500 hp and GT2 needed 400hp plus.

Now you still need big hp/liter motors, but you get a break for not having 16v heads or only useing 4 cyliners, etc. Plus if you can get the weight of the car down to 2000lbs you are not punished be cause you get a break for that too. It will even up the playing field and probably make competition close. That increase competition will do more to increase costs than the formula change.

M758

Take a look at NASA's GTS classes. There are 5 classes where the only rules are power/weight. Those classes have the advantage of using actual HP vs weight, but are generally well recieved by the racers. Many of who also race PCA and post here. PCA could clearly have decided to us actual hp as the factor, but I am sure they did not want to get into the dyno game. Personally I see alot of potential compliance issues using dyno numbers, but if NASA wants to tackle that then great. PCA's choice was to give each motor type a hp/liter bogey and assume the cars would prep to that level. In many ways it still fits in the idea of GT being an almost limitless playground for development where just about anything goes. The GT classes have always been places were the development of the motor, chassis and suspension have been primary factors in speed and race wins. These changes do change that fact, but do try balance things out a bit. I believe it also paves the way for future balancing as needed to ensure some level of competitiveness. The one draw back to GT has been this same great "free for all" nature. In the days before the 996 cups the big money fast guys ran GT. It was the place to be. Once the number of resonably priced 996 cup hit the PCA club racing scene many GT guys went cup racing. Why? Closer competition and more stable cost structure. The cars were still fast and highly developed and being factory cars were more reliable. I believe the numbers in GT have gone down over the years.

Ha even now here many guys tell noob to "stay stock legal" with there DE cars so they stay out of the "money pit of GT". Well now in GT you can take a powerfull DE car with lots of motor and some light weight parts and probably do ok in GT. You probably still can't win, but at least now you won't be racing cars with 200 more hp AND 500lbs less weight. It will just be 200 more hp.

Jase007

The GT "shakeup" is interesting with the addition of weight affecting class.

We used to run a 3.4L in GT3. Car was comptetitive years ago before the 951 invasion With the weights mentioned above ... we'd have to build a 3.7xxL motor to stay in class with an already lightened / suspensioned car [nothing to really change except CF rockers, roof, pan, etc...]. Not going to happen as SCCA HRG, HSR, SVRA, etc.... haven't also changed their rules.

Even more interesting is that we could stuff a 2.27L four cylinder air cooled motor in our 356, keep the same weight, and stay in GT6 class. With the engine multiplier at 90 hp/l we'd be at ~204 hp ... about a 50% increase from current. Again, won't fly anywhere else so ... not cross-sanctioning-body friendly "shakeup". Though .... I'd love to run with 60+ more hp ... just one weekend .... LOL

The shakeup just makes some venues more favorable / appealing than others.

John H

I am assuming my 911 N/A competitors be the same now as they were before the change. I was trying to keep up with the Motec/engine management 911's in GT3 before. I am sure they will add weight and run the same 375 hp 3.4's they were running in GT3 in GT4. I don't think my 280-ish rwhp carb'd car will benefit unless those guys are "too proud" to move down to GT4. The real benefit for the fast 911's formerly in GT3 is bumping the insanely fast 944 turbos out of the same class.