Is Anyone Writing DE Insurance ???
10-09-2007, 08:28 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Did American Collectors pay for environment damage from oil spillage? The water fowl in the Lime Rock area is still oil encrusted because of some orange tanker leakage
10-09-2007, 10:15 PM
#20
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On a related note, I'm more interested in how contact between cars is handled at a DE? How is fault determined? Regardless whether you have track insurance or not, how do the insurance companies agree on who is at fault? Anybody with experience in something like this?
There is another thread out there involving an instructor who wrecked a student's car and refuses to pay, but what about two students who make contact?
There is another thread out there involving an instructor who wrecked a student's car and refuses to pay, but what about two students who make contact?
As a layperson, I believe the important legal concept that comes into play here is that of gross negligance, gross recklessness, willful or wanton misconduct. This is in contrast to ordinary negliance, for which properly worded liability waivers address. Essentially, you hold harmless any party who is part of the waiver...usually the track, event sponsor, other particpants, emergency personnel/services...from loss due to ordinary negliance. I understand the wording of the waiver is very important and that state law will determine the extent to which the waiver provides liability release. I sense that state law protects you from signing away too many of your rights.
In my mind, and again I'm not an attorney, I've thought of a couple extreme examples of gross and ordinary negliance. There's some smart and level headed attornies on Rennlist, so my guess is they'll set me straight! Example...Joe Party shows up impaired or intoxicated (based upon the states law) for the DE and goes out on the track. Assume sufficent evidence exists to substantiate impairment or intoxication. Joe Party collides with another car whereby the collision was created by his actions. Other party sustains $30000 damage to his GT3. Intoxicated...gross negliance. If Joe Party refuses to fork over the repair money and thinks the waiver liability will protect him from you suing him and prevailing, he sadly mistaken. He can be sued you and be found liable due to his act being grossly negliant.
On the other hand, Mr. Badluck is halfway down the back straight at 120 mph, 10 car lengths ahead of Mr. Badluck, someone blows his new radiator hose and antifreeze floods the track. At this time, the car next to Mr. Badluck, for whom he correctly signaled to pass and was correctly passing him, slides on the antifreeze, taps Mt. Badluck, and he goes off track and destroys the side of his new GT3. No gross negliance here. Mr. Badluck load his GT3 on the flatbed. He either gets out his wallet to pay for it himself or call his insurance company and hopes (or knows) they'll pick up the bill.
Mike
10-10-2007, 10:12 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
AM Best ratings can be found at http://www.ambest.com/. There is a search box right on the home page. I did not find a rating for THompson Heath & Bond Limited, but maybe you can find it.
WSIB Motorsports Insurance says their underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies. The AM Best rating of Chubb is about as good as it gets:
Rating: A++ (Superior)
Financial Size Category: XV ($2 Billion or greater)
Outlook: Stable
Action: Affirmed
Effective Date: October 04, 2006
WSIB Motorsports Insurance says their underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies. The AM Best rating of Chubb is about as good as it gets:
Rating: A++ (Superior)
Financial Size Category: XV ($2 Billion or greater)
Outlook: Stable
Action: Affirmed
Effective Date: October 04, 2006
10-10-2007, 10:48 AM
#23
GT3 player par excellence
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Doug...go to "Keep the DE Insurance Questions Coming..." started by SpeedAgent1. Read posts #62 to #68. The summary, to me, is this....unless there was gross negliance involved, you waived both your right and in turn, your insurers right to make a claim against the other party(ies) involved on your behalf. A screw up on the other parties accord, that is considered ordinary negliance, entitles you to nothing. At least from a legal standpoint. You'll have to rely on the other persons moral compass and value set to help you out with your loss. The advice I have recieved in the event someone damages my car is this...expect nothing.
As a layperson, I believe the important legal concept that comes into play here is that of gross negligance, gross recklessness, willful or wanton misconduct. This is in contrast to ordinary negliance, for which properly worded liability waivers address. Essentially, you hold harmless any party who is part of the waiver...usually the track, event sponsor, other particpants, emergency personnel/services...from loss due to ordinary negliance. I understand the wording of the waiver is very important and that state law will determine the extent to which the waiver provides liability release. I sense that state law protects you from signing away too many of your rights.
In my mind, and again I'm not an attorney, I've thought of a couple extreme examples of gross and ordinary negliance. There's some smart and level headed attornies on Rennlist, so my guess is they'll set me straight! Example...Joe Party shows up impaired or intoxicated (based upon the states law) for the DE and goes out on the track. Assume sufficent evidence exists to substantiate impairment or intoxication. Joe Party collides with another car whereby the collision was created by his actions. Other party sustains $30000 damage to his GT3. Intoxicated...gross negliance. If Joe Party refuses to fork over the repair money and thinks the waiver liability will protect him from you suing him and prevailing, he sadly mistaken. He can be sued you and be found liable due to his act being grossly negliant.
On the other hand, Mr. Badluck is halfway down the back straight at 120 mph, 10 car lengths ahead of Mr. Badluck, someone blows his new radiator hose and antifreeze floods the track. At this time, the car next to Mr. Badluck, for whom he correctly signaled to pass and was correctly passing him, slides on the antifreeze, taps Mt. Badluck, and he goes off track and destroys the side of his new GT3. No gross negliance here. Mr. Badluck load his GT3 on the flatbed. He either gets out his wallet to pay for it himself or call his insurance company and hopes (or knows) they'll pick up the bill.
Mike
As a layperson, I believe the important legal concept that comes into play here is that of gross negligance, gross recklessness, willful or wanton misconduct. This is in contrast to ordinary negliance, for which properly worded liability waivers address. Essentially, you hold harmless any party who is part of the waiver...usually the track, event sponsor, other particpants, emergency personnel/services...from loss due to ordinary negliance. I understand the wording of the waiver is very important and that state law will determine the extent to which the waiver provides liability release. I sense that state law protects you from signing away too many of your rights.
In my mind, and again I'm not an attorney, I've thought of a couple extreme examples of gross and ordinary negliance. There's some smart and level headed attornies on Rennlist, so my guess is they'll set me straight! Example...Joe Party shows up impaired or intoxicated (based upon the states law) for the DE and goes out on the track. Assume sufficent evidence exists to substantiate impairment or intoxication. Joe Party collides with another car whereby the collision was created by his actions. Other party sustains $30000 damage to his GT3. Intoxicated...gross negliance. If Joe Party refuses to fork over the repair money and thinks the waiver liability will protect him from you suing him and prevailing, he sadly mistaken. He can be sued you and be found liable due to his act being grossly negliant.
On the other hand, Mr. Badluck is halfway down the back straight at 120 mph, 10 car lengths ahead of Mr. Badluck, someone blows his new radiator hose and antifreeze floods the track. At this time, the car next to Mr. Badluck, for whom he correctly signaled to pass and was correctly passing him, slides on the antifreeze, taps Mt. Badluck, and he goes off track and destroys the side of his new GT3. No gross negliance here. Mr. Badluck load his GT3 on the flatbed. He either gets out his wallet to pay for it himself or call his insurance company and hopes (or knows) they'll pick up the bill.
Mike
i follow the logic.
intoxicated guy is GROSSLY negligent.
and mr badluck is fine.
but, say X is in a slow car passing a turbo (the turbo may or may not have waived me by), X dove inside of turbo. turbo didn't see X, shuts the door, bang and kaboom..... well, yes, X is the moron and did many wrong acts. X is NOT grossly negligent imo. he's a moron and ***. if he has 1/2 of a brain, he MAY offer to pay for some of damage. but he's not obligated to it. this is MY OWN reading of the waivers. am i right? basically sort of someone purposely draft bumping me every turns and forcing me into a wall or corner, something reeally really obvious, like pointing a gun out the window at me wh ile on track, it's really hard to say he's grossly negligent (your intoxicated exp is obvious).
i am no lawyer and i dont know what is or is not gross negligent, but above is how i understood the waiver. anyone???
10-10-2007, 10:56 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
The broker WSIB is offering DE insurance for a 3% premium (plus fees of around $250?) and a 4% "excess" (with a $2,500 minimum), which I interpret to be British insurance speak for deductible. I just read a sample certificate of insurance from WSIB which is the shortest automotive policy I have ever seen. The terms look very straightforward and pretty good. They clearly attempted to adapt a UK form to the US market, but did not try very hard. The form came in a protected Word document that allowed changes only to the state where the insured is resident. I guess the WSIB staffer gets to fill that in, but not make any other changes.
My questions are that the web site says the underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies and they are first rate. The certificate says that the underwriter is the Lloyds Syndicates subscribing for the contract. That means that you really do not know who is standing behind the policy now, and I do not know enough of insurance law to know when the syndicate is identified to the insured, the creditworthiness of the syndicate, whether Lloyds provides any backup to the syndicate and the like. My guess is that it is pretty good, though. My other concern is whether WSIB is licensed to offer this insurance in PA, but again that is probably not the risk of the insured. Finally, in the event of a claim the insured is supposed to notify THB Clowes within 48 hours, yet there is no contact information for that company. According to their web site, THB Clowes is related to Thompson Heath & Bond Limited, described on its web site as "One of the largest and most successful Lloyd's brokers operating in the specialty market sector." They are not clearly related to WSIB. Maybe that is a holdover from the UK form and the insured is really supposed to notify WSIB? To add one more link to the chain, WSIB says it is an insurance wholesaler and the policy is actually placed through another agency, FKA Insurance Services, LLC, 950 W. Monroe St., Suite G200, Jackson, MI. I cannot find a phone listing for FKA....
WSIB seems to be the only broker in the US offering insurance that purports to be backed by a real insurance company, even if it is not actually Chubb and is a Lloyds syndicate that is unnamed. If I had to buy something today, I think this is the one. Happily, my Great Lakes policy from Chris Maume when he was at Snelling Waters runs into May 2008. Perhaps Chris or someone else will offer something better by then....
My questions are that the web site says the underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies and they are first rate. The certificate says that the underwriter is the Lloyds Syndicates subscribing for the contract. That means that you really do not know who is standing behind the policy now, and I do not know enough of insurance law to know when the syndicate is identified to the insured, the creditworthiness of the syndicate, whether Lloyds provides any backup to the syndicate and the like. My guess is that it is pretty good, though. My other concern is whether WSIB is licensed to offer this insurance in PA, but again that is probably not the risk of the insured. Finally, in the event of a claim the insured is supposed to notify THB Clowes within 48 hours, yet there is no contact information for that company. According to their web site, THB Clowes is related to Thompson Heath & Bond Limited, described on its web site as "One of the largest and most successful Lloyd's brokers operating in the specialty market sector." They are not clearly related to WSIB. Maybe that is a holdover from the UK form and the insured is really supposed to notify WSIB? To add one more link to the chain, WSIB says it is an insurance wholesaler and the policy is actually placed through another agency, FKA Insurance Services, LLC, 950 W. Monroe St., Suite G200, Jackson, MI. I cannot find a phone listing for FKA....
WSIB seems to be the only broker in the US offering insurance that purports to be backed by a real insurance company, even if it is not actually Chubb and is a Lloyds syndicate that is unnamed. If I had to buy something today, I think this is the one. Happily, my Great Lakes policy from Chris Maume when he was at Snelling Waters runs into May 2008. Perhaps Chris or someone else will offer something better by then....
Last edited by Phokaioglaukos; 10-10-2007 at 11:17 AM.
10-10-2007, 10:57 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
10-10-2007, 11:06 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Finally, in the event of a claim the insured is supposed to notify THB Clowes within 48 hours, yet there is no contact information for that company. According to their web site, THB Clowes is related to Thompson Heath & Bond Limited, described on its web site as "One of the largest and most successful Lloyd's brokers operating in the specialty market sector." They are not clearly related to WSIB. Maybe that is a holdover from the UK form and the insured is really supposed to notify WSIB?
10-11-2007, 08:29 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
As a quick example of the WSIB policy - On my 930 I have $30K coverage, a $2500.00 deductable (excess) and the policy is $900 per year. That equates to about $50 per track day for me... no brainer.
11-24-2007, 11:56 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
The broker WSIB is offering DE insurance for a 3% premium (plus fees of around $250?) and a 4% "excess" (with a $2,500 minimum), which I interpret to be British insurance speak for deductible. I just read a sample certificate of insurance from WSIB which is the shortest automotive policy I have ever seen. The terms look very straightforward and pretty good. They clearly attempted to adapt a UK form to the US market, but did not try very hard. The form came in a protected Word document that allowed changes only to the state where the insured is resident. I guess the WSIB staffer gets to fill that in, but not make any other changes.
My questions are that the web site says the underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies and they are first rate. The certificate says that the underwriter is the Lloyds Syndicates subscribing for the contract. That means that you really do not know who is standing behind the policy now, and I do not know enough of insurance law to know when the syndicate is identified to the insured, the creditworthiness of the syndicate, whether Lloyds provides any backup to the syndicate and the like. My guess is that it is pretty good, though. My other concern is whether WSIB is licensed to offer this insurance in PA, but again that is probably not the risk of the insured. Finally, in the event of a claim the insured is supposed to notify THB Clowes within 48 hours, yet there is no contact information for that company. According to their web site, THB Clowes is related to Thompson Heath & Bond Limited, described on its web site as "One of the largest and most successful Lloyd's brokers operating in the specialty market sector." They are not clearly related to WSIB. Maybe that is a holdover from the UK form and the insured is really supposed to notify WSIB? To add one more link to the chain, WSIB says it is an insurance wholesaler and the policy is actually placed through another agency, FKA Insurance Services, LLC, 950 W. Monroe St., Suite G200, Jackson, MI. I cannot find a phone listing for FKA....
WSIB seems to be the only broker in the US offering insurance that purports to be backed by a real insurance company, even if it is not actually Chubb and is a Lloyds syndicate that is unnamed. If I had to buy something today, I think this is the one. Happily, my Great Lakes policy from Chris Maume when he was at Snelling Waters runs into May 2008. Perhaps Chris or someone else will offer something better by then....
My questions are that the web site says the underwriter is Chubb Group of Insurance Companies and they are first rate. The certificate says that the underwriter is the Lloyds Syndicates subscribing for the contract. That means that you really do not know who is standing behind the policy now, and I do not know enough of insurance law to know when the syndicate is identified to the insured, the creditworthiness of the syndicate, whether Lloyds provides any backup to the syndicate and the like. My guess is that it is pretty good, though. My other concern is whether WSIB is licensed to offer this insurance in PA, but again that is probably not the risk of the insured. Finally, in the event of a claim the insured is supposed to notify THB Clowes within 48 hours, yet there is no contact information for that company. According to their web site, THB Clowes is related to Thompson Heath & Bond Limited, described on its web site as "One of the largest and most successful Lloyd's brokers operating in the specialty market sector." They are not clearly related to WSIB. Maybe that is a holdover from the UK form and the insured is really supposed to notify WSIB? To add one more link to the chain, WSIB says it is an insurance wholesaler and the policy is actually placed through another agency, FKA Insurance Services, LLC, 950 W. Monroe St., Suite G200, Jackson, MI. I cannot find a phone listing for FKA....
WSIB seems to be the only broker in the US offering insurance that purports to be backed by a real insurance company, even if it is not actually Chubb and is a Lloyds syndicate that is unnamed. If I had to buy something today, I think this is the one. Happily, my Great Lakes policy from Chris Maume when he was at Snelling Waters runs into May 2008. Perhaps Chris or someone else will offer something better by then....
11-25-2007, 09:08 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
I know a couple of people who signed up through WSIB in the past couple of months. Gainsco (with Chris Maume broking?) has suggested that it will offer coverage next season, but I have not heard anything recently about that.