A.Wayne

Ben was setup , As was Mclaren

mamoroso

Bingo! No come and help me make the Tifosi in Italy understand....

Unfortunately everybody has been focusing on the advantage the McLaren might have gotten from the data.

I think the FIA whould have behaved in a very different way if that were the case.

Surely an employee that was unhappy and just about to leave didn't have access to the most important Ferrari secrets. Those docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.

Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.

The problem here is that it was on paper and in the wrong hands. And McLarend were stupid enough not to disclose it to the FIA.

And because the first sentence was ridicolous then Ferrari HAD to mount a case not to be the laughing stock of the F1 paddock/media.

This sentence makes EVERYONE happy. At Ferrari they have already released a statement that they are satisfied with the outcome.
At McLaren Dennis is saying it is unfair, but that is good news that the 2 drivers were not affected.
The sponsors are acting all hurt, but they are also happy the WDC has been left alone because the commercial return of a Hamilton WC is much bigger for Vodafone, Tag Heuer or Santander (Alonso)/Abbey (Hamilton) than McLaren champion in the constructor and not in the drivers championship.

Still this sucks. I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Still it was a terrible decision not to inform the FIA about it.

paradisenb

This is Sophistry. I can hear a carjacker, serial killer or a suicide bomber using the same argument. "Look at the news, 20 killed at VT, 50 killed in car bomb", people do it every day. Its not wrong. I just got caught.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.

I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.

amaist

Like Lexus, for example?

Back when they were starting out they bought a few Benzes and tore them apart to learn how to build a luxury car.
Where were the lawsuits?

Nano

that would be reverse engineering of a publicly available product... it is lawful. The fact the LS400 looked almost exactly like a S class is another story. It is accepted, and everyone does it. I've heard stories of Ferrari technical department calling lamborghini directly and ask if they had a gallardo available and have lamborghini deliver it directly to the Ferrari factory, and vice versa. As long as they don't infringe on patents, they can do whatever they want. Different from F1 cars, not analogous to what happened here.

George from MD

You both nailed it I completely concur.

"Bingo! No come and help me make the Tifosi in Italy understand....

Unfortunately everybody has been focusing on the advantage the McLaren might have gotten from the data.

I think the FIA whould have behaved in a very different way if that were the case.

Surely an employee that was unhappy and just about to leave didn't have access to the most important Ferrari secrets. Those docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.

Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.

The problem here is that it was on paper and in the wrong hands. And McLarend were stupid enough not to disclose it to the FIA.

And because the first sentence was ridicolous then Ferrari HAD to mount a case not to be the laughing stock of the F1 paddock/media.

This sentence makes EVERYONE happy. At Ferrari they have already released a statement that they are satisfied with the outcome.
At McLaren Dennis is saying it is unfair, but that is good news that the 2 drivers were not affected.
The sponsors are acting all hurt, but they are also happy the WDC has been left alone because the commercial return of a Hamilton WC is much bigger for Vodafone, Tag Heuer or Santander (Alonso)/Abbey (Hamilton) than McLaren champion in the constructor and not in the drivers championship.

Still this sucks. I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Still it was a terrible decision not to inform the FIA about it."

Flying Finn

Exactly and this is used by many if not all manufacturers today. Including our belowed Porsche who also buys other manufacturer's cars and disassembles & studies them, these cars include Toyotas etc.

TwentySix

If the FIA could just be even handed when they mete out their brand of justice. Toyota was found guilty of industrial espionage against Ferrari, yet it was left up to the civil courts and there were no penalties from the FIA bestowed on them then, amongst others...

This is way too severe, IMO. I was loving this season, one of the best on track in many years... hate when these things are decided in the courts.

Anyone read The Mole? Interesting take on Todt's motives....

penguinking

"cheating" in motorsport is commonplace. just look to nascar.
some consider it part of the game, and play accordingly

multi21

I'm sorry if I offend you, but these are some of the most insane comments I've heard on this case thusfar. When an engineer moves from one company to the next, he doesn't forget everything he's learned, in fact, he might know a lot about some other part of engineering that he didn't know before, but he doesn't have absolute knowledge about every working piece of the car and more importantly why it's on the car and why it works or won't work. Adrian Newey is a bright aero designer and he might know more than all of us combined about engines, but I doubt Mercedes is giving him the dossier on everything about the engines, or the gearbox or anything else.

Ferrari, along with a couple other teams, are the only top to bottom constructors. McLaren is not and as a result the information contained in that book had valuable information regarding the innerworkings of the chassis, engine, drivetrain, etc.

With regard to no malice in McLaren having the data???? If it was no big deal, why did they keep it a secret? Wouldn't McLaren have fought tooth and nail if the FIA had required Ferrari to have a copy the McLaren/Mercedes dossier? What's the harm, as long as the McLaren components are not used on the Ferrari car?

Flying Finn

So true.

When asked, Kimi said he hoped they get to keep the points because he doesn't want to win the Championship that way.

I agree with that, unfortunately this Championship in any case leaves a bad taste because McLaren cheated and benefited from cheating, therefore their drivers benefited also. How much I we'll propably never know but it will leave us wondering.

IMO 2007 Ferrari's Formula 1 Constructor's Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault) and Alonso or Hamilton's Formula 1 Drivers Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault).

A.Wayne

Sniff, Sniff, The only thing smells bad here is the brummy whining , Hand over that bottle , Bra trabbat

Cory M

If McLaren was presented with an optional punishment: pay no fine and face no disqualification but allow Ferrari and all of the other F1 teams have free access to their network and their database of technical documentation for 6 months, do you think they would take it?

fuenfer

Is grandprix.com reading our forum?? Check out this link:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19652.html

daigo

Sophistry! Now who’s being ridiculous? The bases of my comments were to simply point out that some people were taking this offence far too seriously. You’re response just exemplified my position. I’m not arguing there was a crime committed here. But honestly, to compare it with mass murders and innocent people having physical harm inflicted on them does nothing but belittle the severity of those crimes.