McLaren fined but drivers OK
#46
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Man oh man! Come on people.
This reminds me of the steroid scandal when Ben Johnson was caught. Everyone was slamming Ben as being unfair and shameful for what he had done. In reality he was doing what others were doing. We now accept the fact that steroids have been well established in most sports for years. The only thing we should be talking about is the fact that Ben Johnson and McLaren got caught. Are we so naive to think the F1 community hasn’t been polluted with scandalous spying and espionage since its inception? Every form of competitive racing is utterly consumed by emissaries whose sole task is to find what the competitors are doing. Guess what folks, there’s a reason why they look so alike.
They got caught. That’s it. I’d be more concerned at the high bar that the “Ben & Bernie Show” have set. Every competitive team is going to do their best to claim another team has gained an unscrupulous advantage at their expense.
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They got caught. That’s it. I’d be more concerned at the high bar that the “Ben & Bernie Show” have set. Every competitive team is going to do their best to claim another team has gained an unscrupulous advantage at their expense.
Ben was setup , As was Mclaren
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#47
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I don't believe the issue is how many seconds mclaren got off the Ferrari data, that's a question for the ages... As far as we know, the ferrari data might actually have made them slower, lol. Maybe that's why it's not on the car.
If I'm not mistaken the court deliberated on Mclaren being guilty of unfair, frodulent conduct, violation of sporting behavior, etc...(the whole article 151c). I believe the point was not what they got out of the Ferrari's technical papers, but that they HAD the ferrari technical papers, knew about them and used them evidently. Some people seem to confuse the two (Mclaren having unfair car, and Mclaren having unfair conduct). I'm still hoping for the court evidence tomorrow to clarify some mystifying points.
Sadly, as I've been reading some comments people left in various news articles of the latest developments, this thing isn't doing FIA, Formula 1, the other teams, even Ferrari image much good.
If I'm not mistaken the court deliberated on Mclaren being guilty of unfair, frodulent conduct, violation of sporting behavior, etc...(the whole article 151c). I believe the point was not what they got out of the Ferrari's technical papers, but that they HAD the ferrari technical papers, knew about them and used them evidently. Some people seem to confuse the two (Mclaren having unfair car, and Mclaren having unfair conduct). I'm still hoping for the court evidence tomorrow to clarify some mystifying points.
Sadly, as I've been reading some comments people left in various news articles of the latest developments, this thing isn't doing FIA, Formula 1, the other teams, even Ferrari image much good.
Bingo! No come and help me make the Tifosi in Italy understand....
Unfortunately everybody has been focusing on the advantage the McLaren might have gotten from the data.
I think the FIA whould have behaved in a very different way if that were the case.
Surely an employee that was unhappy and just about to leave didn't have access to the most important Ferrari secrets. Those docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.
Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.
The problem here is that it was on paper and in the wrong hands. And McLarend were stupid enough not to disclose it to the FIA.
And because the first sentence was ridicolous then Ferrari HAD to mount a case not to be the laughing stock of the F1 paddock/media.
This sentence makes EVERYONE happy. At Ferrari they have already released a statement that they are satisfied with the outcome.
At McLaren Dennis is saying it is unfair, but that is good news that the 2 drivers were not affected.
The sponsors are acting all hurt, but they are also happy the WDC has been left alone because the commercial return of a Hamilton WC is much bigger for Vodafone, Tag Heuer or Santander (Alonso)/Abbey (Hamilton) than McLaren champion in the constructor and not in the drivers championship.
Still this sucks. I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Still it was a terrible decision not to inform the FIA about it.
#48
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Man oh man! Come on people.
This reminds me of the steroid scandal when Ben Johnson was caught. Everyone was slamming Ben as being unfair and shameful for what he had done. In reality he was doing what others were doing. We now accept the fact that steroids have been well established in most sports for years. The only thing we should be talking about is the fact that Ben Johnson and McLaren got caught. Are we so naive to think the F1 community hasn’t been polluted with scandalous spying and espionage since its inception? Every form of competitive racing is utterly consumed by emissaries whose sole task is to find what the competitors are doing. Guess what folks, there’s a reason why they look so alike.
They got caught. That’s it. I’d be more concerned at the high bar that the “Ben & Bernie Show” have set. Every competitive team is going to do their best to claim another team has gained an unscrupulous advantage at their expense.
![banghead](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif)
They got caught. That’s it. I’d be more concerned at the high bar that the “Ben & Bernie Show” have set. Every competitive team is going to do their best to claim another team has gained an unscrupulous advantage at their expense.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.
I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.
#49
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Back when they were starting out they bought a few Benzes and tore them apart to learn how to build a luxury car.
Where were the lawsuits?
#50
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that would be reverse engineering of a publicly available product... it is lawful. The fact the LS400 looked almost exactly like a S class is another story. It is accepted, and everyone does it. I've heard stories of Ferrari technical department calling lamborghini directly and ask if they had a gallardo available and have lamborghini deliver it directly to the Ferrari factory, and vice versa. As long as they don't infringe on patents, they can do whatever they want. Different from F1 cars, not analogous to what happened here.
#51
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You both nailed it I completely concur.
"Bingo! No come and help me make the Tifosi in Italy understand....
Unfortunately everybody has been focusing on the advantage the McLaren might have gotten from the data.
I think the FIA whould have behaved in a very different way if that were the case.
Surely an employee that was unhappy and just about to leave didn't have access to the most important Ferrari secrets. Those docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.
Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.
The problem here is that it was on paper and in the wrong hands. And McLarend were stupid enough not to disclose it to the FIA.
And because the first sentence was ridicolous then Ferrari HAD to mount a case not to be the laughing stock of the F1 paddock/media.
This sentence makes EVERYONE happy. At Ferrari they have already released a statement that they are satisfied with the outcome.
At McLaren Dennis is saying it is unfair, but that is good news that the 2 drivers were not affected.
The sponsors are acting all hurt, but they are also happy the WDC has been left alone because the commercial return of a Hamilton WC is much bigger for Vodafone, Tag Heuer or Santander (Alonso)/Abbey (Hamilton) than McLaren champion in the constructor and not in the drivers championship.
Still this sucks. I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Still it was a terrible decision not to inform the FIA about it."
"Bingo! No come and help me make the Tifosi in Italy understand....
Unfortunately everybody has been focusing on the advantage the McLaren might have gotten from the data.
I think the FIA whould have behaved in a very different way if that were the case.
Surely an employee that was unhappy and just about to leave didn't have access to the most important Ferrari secrets. Those docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.
Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.
The problem here is that it was on paper and in the wrong hands. And McLarend were stupid enough not to disclose it to the FIA.
And because the first sentence was ridicolous then Ferrari HAD to mount a case not to be the laughing stock of the F1 paddock/media.
This sentence makes EVERYONE happy. At Ferrari they have already released a statement that they are satisfied with the outcome.
At McLaren Dennis is saying it is unfair, but that is good news that the 2 drivers were not affected.
The sponsors are acting all hurt, but they are also happy the WDC has been left alone because the commercial return of a Hamilton WC is much bigger for Vodafone, Tag Heuer or Santander (Alonso)/Abbey (Hamilton) than McLaren champion in the constructor and not in the drivers championship.
Still this sucks. I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Still it was a terrible decision not to inform the FIA about it."
#52
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Exactly and this is used by many if not all manufacturers today. Including our belowed Porsche who also buys other manufacturer's cars and disassembles & studies them, these cars include Toyotas etc.
#53
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If the FIA could just be even handed when they mete out their brand of justice. Toyota was found guilty of industrial espionage against Ferrari, yet it was left up to the civil courts and there were no penalties from the FIA bestowed on them then, amongst others... ![ooops](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon501.gif)
This is way too severe, IMO. I was loving this season, one of the best on track in many years... hate when these things are decided in the courts.
Anyone read The Mole? Interesting take on Todt's motives....
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This is way too severe, IMO. I was loving this season, one of the best on track in many years... hate when these things are decided in the courts.
Anyone read The Mole? Interesting take on Todt's motives....
#54
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This is Sophistry. I can hear a carjacker, serial killer or a suicide bomber using the same argument. "Look at the news, 20 killed at VT, 50 killed in car bomb", people do it every day. Its not wrong. I just got caught.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.
I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.
I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.
some consider it part of the game, and play accordingly
#55
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hose docs probably represent the know-how every engineer carries with them when they move from one team to another.
Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.
I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Are you telling me Adrian Newey forgot EVERYTHING he did at McLaren when he moved to Red Bull.
I am quite convinced there was no malice in McLaren having the data.... they didn't look for them and they were probably not useful at all.
Ferrari, along with a couple other teams, are the only top to bottom constructors. McLaren is not and as a result the information contained in that book had valuable information regarding the innerworkings of the chassis, engine, drivetrain, etc.
With regard to no malice in McLaren having the data???? If it was no big deal, why did they keep it a secret? Wouldn't McLaren have fought tooth and nail if the FIA had required Ferrari to have a copy the McLaren/Mercedes dossier? What's the harm, as long as the McLaren components are not used on the Ferrari car?
#56
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When asked, Kimi said he hoped they get to keep the points because he doesn't want to win the Championship that way.
I agree with that, unfortunately this Championship in any case leaves a bad taste because McLaren cheated and benefited from cheating, therefore their drivers benefited also. How much I we'll propably never know but it will leave us wondering.
IMO 2007 Ferrari's Formula 1 Constructor's Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault) and Alonso or Hamilton's Formula 1 Drivers Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault).
#57
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So true.
When asked, Kimi said he hoped they get to keep the points because he doesn't want to win the Championship that way.
I agree with that, unfortunately this Championship in any case leaves a bad taste because McLaren cheated and benefited from cheating, therefore their drivers benefited also. How much I we'll propably never know but it will leave us wondering.
IMO 2007 Ferrari's Formula 1 Constructor's Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault) and Alonso or Hamilton's Formula 1 Drivers Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault).
When asked, Kimi said he hoped they get to keep the points because he doesn't want to win the Championship that way.
I agree with that, unfortunately this Championship in any case leaves a bad taste because McLaren cheated and benefited from cheating, therefore their drivers benefited also. How much I we'll propably never know but it will leave us wondering.
IMO 2007 Ferrari's Formula 1 Constructor's Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault) and Alonso or Hamilton's Formula 1 Drivers Championship Title smells bad (even though it's not their fault).
Sniff, Sniff, The only thing smells bad here is the brummy whining ,
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#58
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If McLaren was presented with an optional punishment: pay no fine and face no disqualification but allow Ferrari and all of the other F1 teams have free access to their network and their database of technical documentation for 6 months, do you think they would take it?
#59
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Belichick fined $500,000, New England Patriots fined $250,000 for stealing opponents play calls with a videocamera on the sidelines. Team will lose their 2008 1st round draft pick if they make the playoffs or 2nd and 3rd round draft pick if they don't reach the playoffs.
Whoops, wrong forum.![offtopic](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/offtopic.gif)
Whoops, wrong forum.
![offtopic](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/offtopic.gif)
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19652.html
#60
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This is Sophistry. I can hear a carjacker, serial killer or a suicide bomber using the same argument. "Look at the news, 20 killed at VT, 50 killed in car bomb", people do it every day. Its not wrong. I just got caught.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.
I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.
As a society, we would be foolish to accept the idea that something's OK because others do it everyday and get away with it.
I make no judgement about the penalty but justifing the act? Unacceptable.