TR6

Agreed that a waiver signed by the two drivers theoretically prevents them from seeking damages from one another, but the insurance company hasn't signed a waiver, so I don't know that it would necessarily prevent the insurance company from subrogating if they chose to. However, your logic does make sense to me. Chris has answered that the insurance company would not, so it appears to be a moot point now.

DaveM993

The text of most Waivers....


IN CONSIDERATION of being permitted to compete, officiate, observe, work for, or participate in any way in the EVENT(S) or being permitted to enter for
any purpose any RESTRICTED AREA (defined as any area requiring special authorization, credentials, or permission to enter or any area to which admission
by the general public is restricted or prohibited including but not limited to the competition area and any hot pit area), EACH OF THE UNDERSIGNED, for
himself, his personal representatives, heirs, and next of kin:
1. Acknowledges, agrees, and represents that he/she has or will immediately upon entering any of such RESTRICTED AREAS, and will
continuously thereafter, inspect the RESTRICTED AREAS which he enters and he further agrees and warrants that, if at any time, he is in or about
RESTRICTED AREAS and he feels anything to be unsafe, he will immediately advise the officials of such and will leave the RESTRICTED
AREA and/or refuse to participate further in the EVENT(S). I acknowledge that I may not have the opportunity to inspect any RESTRICTED
AREA prior to the event.
2. HEREBY RELEASES, WAIVES, DISCHCARGES AND COVENANTS NOT TO SUE the promoters, participants, racing associations,
sanctioning or administrative organizations or any affiliated entities thereof, track operators, track owners, officials, car owners, drivers, pit crews,
rescue personnel, any persons in any RESTRICTED AREA, sponsors, advertisers, owners, lessors, and lessees of premises used to conduct the
EVENT(S), premises and event inspectors, surveyors, underwriters, brokers, consultants and others who give recommendations, directions, or
instructions or engage in risk evaluation or loss control activities regarding the premises or EVENT(S) and for each of them, their directors,
officers, agents and employees, all for the purposes herein referred to as “Releasees”, FROM ALL LIABILITY TO THE UNDERSIGNED, his
personal representatives, assigns, heirs, and next of kin FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE, AND ANY CLAIM OR DEMANDS
THEREFORE ON ACCOUNT OF INJURY TO THE PERSON OR PROPERTY OR RESULTING IN DEATH OF THE UNDERSIGNED
ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THE EVENT(S), WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR
OTHERWISE.
3. HEREBY AGREES TO INDEMNIFY AND SAVE AND HOLD HARMLESS the Releasees and each of them FROM ANY LOSS, LIABILITY,
DAMAGE, OR COST INCLUDING BODILY INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE they may incur arising out of my presence or participation in
the EVENT(S), WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE.
4. HEREBY ASSUMES FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY RISK OF BODILY INJURY, DEATH OR PROPERTY DAMAGE arising out of or
related to the EVENT(S) whether caused by the NEGLIGENCE OF RELEASEES or otherwise.
5. HEREBY acknowledges that THE ACTIVITIES OF THE EVENT(S) ARE VERY DANGEROUS and involve the risk of serious injury and/or
death and/or property damage. Each of THE UNDERSIGNED also expressly acknowledges that INJURIES RECEIVED MAY BE
COMPOUNDED OR INCREASED BY NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS OR PROCEDURES OF THE RELEASEES.
6. HEREBY agrees that this Release and Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement EXTENDS TO ALL ACTS OF
NEGLIGENCE BY THE RELEASEES, INCLUDING NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS and is intended to be as broad and inclusive as is
permitted by the laws of the Province or State in which the Event(s) is/are conducted and that if any portion thereof is held invalid, it is agreed that
the balance shall, notwithstanding, continue in full legal force and effect.
I HAVE READ THIS RELEASE AND WAIVER OF LIABILITY, ASSUMPTION OF RISK AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT, FULLY UNDERSTAND
ITS TERMS, UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVE GIVEN UP SUBSTANTIAL RIGHTS BY SIGNING IT, AND HAVE SIGNED IT FREELY AND
VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT ANY INDUCEMENT, ASSURANCE, OR GUARANTEE BEING MADE TO ME AND INTEND MY SIGNATURE TO BE
A COMPLETE AND UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE OF ALL LIABILITY TO THE GREATEST ALLOWED BY LAW.

Phokaioglaukos

Greg, if there is no claim possible by the injured driver there is nothing for the insurer to subrogate to. Of course anyone can, and some have, attempted to defeat the waiver (which as Dave notes above is a waiver, release, covenant not to sue and indemnity--belt and three suspenders!). Those efforts almost universally fail.

SpeedAgent1

What part did you skip to and then sign? Can you imagine the line at the gate if everyone sat there and read the agreement before signing?

The fact is most people don't EVER read these. Then, it's up to the school or attorneys to fight about what it DID say in court.

I remember the days when I was a kid and stores had signs that read "You break it you buy it!"....what a unique way of handling the situation.

Chris
www.prosure.net

TR6

There was someone here on rennlist that posted previously when this discussion came up before that they felt that they could prove in court that no one in line had time to read the waiver, based on the length of the line of cars waiting, the time each took to sign, etc.. Hopefully, for the sake of our DE hobby, no one will test that and spoil the fun for the rest of us....

SpeedAgent1

If you either don't have the time to read it or you don't agree with it....don't sign it. Assuming all participants are adults (this pertains to age, not maturity) whether or not you choose to read it and sign or breeze it and sign is up to you, but you signed an agreement.

People do what they want these days so it woudn't surprise me if some argument like this came up.

Chris
www.prosure.net

DaveM993

the release incrementally addresses this issue by having the words "I have read and agree to this release" in the signature block over which you sign. So I guess one could argue that you acknowledge your obligation to read it.

But I am not a lawyer....and the first time someone is successful, on a grand scale, of creating a financial liability....our little hobby is done.

RickBetterley

The only way that the insurance company has a right to subrogate is through the insured; if the insured waived that right (through the waiver), the insurance company has in effect waived it as well.
Don't you just love insurance?

2000gt3cup

My suggestion is that all are aware of the liabiltiy waiver we sign and agree too... If you are not going to live by that please do not participate because by not abiding by that I agree....

"Our little hobby is done"

Phokaioglaukos

The practice point here is to be certain that THE OTHER GUYS all sign the waiver. Otherwise they have not waived their claims against YOU, but you have waived claims against them. When the registrar notes during the driver meeting that John has not signed and you later see John, tell the registrar so that John signs. The same for guests and other non-participants. It's for your protection.

Our registrar has the PCA waivers filled out with the names of the registered participants so that blanks are easy to spot.

JoelG

re not having time to read the waiver NJ BMW CCA sends a copy out with the participants package with a note stating that this is the waiver they will sign at the gate

last winter the BMW CCA risk mgmt atty told us (the NJ /Del Val BMW CCA instructors) the biggest thing we could as participants to avoid legal problems was to make sure everyone signed the waiver-- in other words if we see someone w/o a wrist band we should walk them over to registrar so he or she can have them sign the waiver and get a wristband

JMR

New question Chris:

How do you reconcile the concept of "agreed value" vs. "actual cash value"? We are insuring our cars based upon a stated value and naturally would expect that that is the amount, less the deductible, that would be paid in the event of a total loss. However, the policy language that I reviewed said that in the event of a loss the amount payable would be the actual cash value of the damage. In addition, it says that there are potential adjustments for depreciation and condition.

What I envision is in the event of a total loss of a car with an agreed value of $40k based upon the "actual cash value" language the insurance company would try to look to auction or other comparables to establish the actual cash value and that amount might be significantly less than the agreed value.

Care to comment?

John

Mike S.

Chris...thanks for making us all aware of this DE product and answering our questions.

I only do a few DE's/year. Can you offer a reduced cost policy and program for those of us in this part of the DE segment?

Thanks,

Mike

LVDell

Mike, I am sure Chris will chime in to correct me if I am wrong but from when I spoke to him it was stated as program that doesn't not matter if you do 1 event or 20 events. Besides, the policy is really reasonably priced even if you do just a couple events.

Gary R.

As far as i'm concerned if a region (BMW, PCA, or whatever) allows someone through the gates without signing the waiver and that nimrod sues then I'll sue everyone including the Pirelli girls...