burkepat

Watching Victory by Design on Speed Channel and having an relaxing Good Friday holiday.

Its "extra" Good Friday because I found out today that Progressive is going to pay to fix my 2002 C4S that I went 4 wheels off at my last DE event a few weeks ago. About 5k in damage to front fender and bumper. I made a big mistake and took mt PSM off on my last run and with my new MPSC's giving me tons off confidence, a red mist took over and I spun, running off into some tires that protected a culvert.

Question for you folks:

I am thinking of buying a dedicated track car. I will do 4-6 DE events/year.
I have done 6 already, and am hooked.
I would eventually like to race.
My home track is a 1.8 mile with lots of tight curves and 2 straights

There is a 92 968 for sale that is track prepped with roll cage, new sparco's, etc. and they are asking 19.5K

I don't want to risk my C4S getting more damage and wear/tear.

Thoughts on a 968?

RonCT

Reality Check Time... You only have 6 DEs under your belt and your driving on PSCs without PSM?

If you are smooth, PSM never kicks in, but is in the background just in case you screw up. I would say I waited 15 DEs before switching from streets to PSCs - I was in no hurry. I waited until I was at the top of my game before making the switch - until I was 100% smooth and was getting 100% of what the PS2 had to offer. Most people think the tire is maxed out because it's making some noise, and then prematurely switch to R-comps - but let me tell you - Street tires can be extremely formidable. How about 1 G braking and 1.35 G cornering in my 997S? Extremely quick lap times to boot. Those numbers will probably go up to 1.2 braking and 1.55 cornering, which is scary territory.

I'm in Black and still use Street rubber at the beginning of the season and in the rain. I have nothing to prove and actually would be happy to run PS2s all the time if I wanted a margin of safety.

Try this... Get yourself another 10 DEs under your belt, hangout in White for a while, and then get the PSCs back out again.

BMW CCA does it right - no R-comps until Yellow (Intermediate).

richard glickel.

I love 'em!

dsmith

This could be a long thread. I've cover a few more what ifs.
1. no way would I have gone to insurance for a $5k fix at the track. If you have to, then I respectfully suggest you stop going to the track, cuz it's going to cost you your retirement savings.

2. if you disregard 1, then get a well prepared, cheap improved touring, 1st gen Rx7, miata, VW, etc and trailer for $5k-$7k, and buy a cheap tow vehicle for $7k or less. it's amazing how fast you learn on the track, when you don't care about wrecking the car. nobody tries to wreck, but, as you see, it is a very real possibility. Nobody can argue that this is not the cheapest, safest, and possibly most fun route. Bonus is that you can go get your race license and race for cheaper than DE events.

3. do something stupid like buy another expensive street car to wreck.

i did option 2 and stored the car/trailer/wheels/spares in a storage unit for $45/mo. I paid $14k for everything, and sold everything for $10.5k 4 years later. I put around 100 hrs of track time on it. so, for less than your off course excursion, i raced for 4 years.

David

Geoffrey

Depending on what comes with the car and the condition of the car, 19k sounds like a good deal if everything is AOK. As Richard mentiones, a 968 is a great track car and a good learning tool. You might think about a 944 since there just aren't as many junked 968s as there are 944s, so if you damage it, you'll likely be buying new parts.

burkepat

Why the hell wouldn't I let progressive pay for the fix???

When I asked them aboutcoverage, they said it didn't matter where it happened, as long as it wasn't racing.

I could have easily paid it out of pocket, but if they cover it..I am going to let 'em pay.

smlporsche

968's are good track cars if sufficiently lightened but as someone said above they aren't common so parts may be difficult to find although they share alot with later 944's
I got a 944 S2 and have less in it than what you quoted and the car is set up perfectly IMHO.
You should be able to buy one for ~ 15K or so and have a blast.

Racerrob

I think the point is that you used your "get out of jail free" card on a relatively cheap fix given the value of your car. Insurance companies are tightening up with these claims and most people, if they even have the coverage, save them for the "big one" and/or don't want to risk cancellation. I agree that it would be a good idea to get a track car with all the safety goodies and self insure it or get track coverage.

multi21

Your fairly new to the game. Do a search on this forum and read about the nightmares people have had with track claims. It's not the initial 5k that your insurance, paid, it's what happens afterwards. Your placed in a national database and it could effect your ability to get coverage with other carriers in the future when comparison shopping. Some have their track accidents covered and then they are dropped or their rates are raised extremely high.

When I read your post, I have to admit that that was my 1st thought as well. I'd have paid the 5k out of my pocket and not invoiced my carrier. To be brutally honest, your damn lucky you only had $5k in damage with an off in a Porsche.

I echo everything everyone else has said:

Stay away from the r-comps for a couple of years. If your goal is to eventually race, then street tires are a great learning tool. When you do go to r-comps, you will be so much faster you won't believe it.

MPSC are very tricky for beginning DE drivers. They do not give audio feed back like other r-comps, let alone street tires.

When you do go to r-comps, start with the Toyo RA-1. They are a good buffer from street tires to r-comps and last forever in DE.

Seat time, seat time, seat time. Do anything and everything, DE, autocross, karts, whatever.

burkepat

Well i guess the guy I was working with here lied through his teeth to me. Because I asked about all the "nightmare' scenario questions and he said it would have no effect. As long as it was drivers ed..I would be ok.

Maybe things are different down here in La. I sure hope so. Yikes.

multi21

Hopefully nothing will come out of it, but it's better to know what could happen rather than be blindsided. Good luck with finding your track car.

RonCT

Reading the replies I just caught it that you filed a claim. Most insurance companies exclude any activity taking place on a track. Period. Your company is one of the few remaining that haven't added that language and I expect that will change before you know it. I too have heard story after story about a claim filed for an on-track incident and the customer is dropped upon renewal or put in some sort of high-risk pool. Think about the perspective of the insurance company... Every track day I see 3 or 4 wrecks out of 100 cars. That's pretty bad, don't you think? So it would make sense for all insurance companies to say "forget this - guys driving on racing tires trying to improve lap times on a race track..."

Ditto what others have said - if racing is in your blood, get a race car and stick with street tires for a while and get track-dedicated insurance. Search the forum on insurance and you'll find lots of posts - most are concerned about liability - like if you hurt somebody else you better be insured up to your eyeballs or you could lose everything and end up in bankruptcy. We tend to treat what we do lightly, but it is incredibly serious.

My objectives from the start have been 1) Learn how to drive better, 2) Become an instructor to teach others what I've learned, and 3) Always drive home in the car I drove to the track in - unscratched. 5 years later, no off-road incidences, no claims on insurance (paid out of pocket for the bumper that a cone thrown in front of my car destroyed).

Stay safe

4master

Burkepat,
I was at that DE where you had your off and am glad to hear the damage was not that bad. I would pay attention to what most of the folks on this forum have to say because they have been there and done that.

In response to your question, I have a few suggestions;
- someone suggested getting a 944 as a dedicated track car and I would second that. In P car land, they are the least expensive and they are abundant, especially important for spares. I would also suggest that you get an NA 944, primarily the early "slow" ones. These are really inexpensive, relatively speaking, to track and race. Compared to S2's, turbo's, 968's, etc... brakes are cheap, 15" or 16" wheels and tires are cheap, the motors are reliable as heck, etc....
- I first started doing DE's in my 93 968 (since sold - dumb move) and they are great cars but very hard to find spares and way more expensive on everything that is not shared with the other water pumpers. We have a local racer who races a 968 and he could give you all the details.
-if you got an early 944, you could race in SP1 or SP2 in PCA which seems to be an emerging class, plus we have 7 944's that race in the GBRS series at NPR, which you could eventually get into.
- as far as tires go; if your still in the early days of all this (which you are) stay on streets and leave the PSM on when your doing a DE in your street car. Save the hardcore stuff for when you have a dedicated track car. That way if you bust it up, it becomes a lesson learned and you move on.

Hope to see you at our next DE on May 20th (if the car is fixed).

Scott Foremaster
1985 944 SP2/#909
Mardi Gras Region

DrJupeman

Huh? People survived for a loooooooong time without PSM. He's not a fool for turning off PSM. Perhaps he was a fool to start learning with PSM on in the first place if he thinks turning it off was a contributing factor to the accident...

RonCT

Sure people got by without PSM, and seat belts and ABS, etc. He's driving a $50,000 street car on the track with only 6 DEs. He talked about turning it on and off - so which is it? If he permanently disabled it when he got the car and learned its every nuance in street driving cold, hot, wet, etc. then I'd see your point.

Most (if not all) chapter instructors want PSM on until the driver is say solo and in White. We had a discussion about this recently at a PCA DE Workshop. Why not let a student learn the basics, like the line, throttle / brake transition, vehicle dynamics, etc. before starting to turn off PSM, remove the ABS fuse, go on R-comps, etc.?

I don't understand why some people are averse to electronic controls and aids. Even F1 cars have Traction Control.

PSM can be a very good teaching tool because it's like an old-school teacher standing behind you ready to smack you on the knuckles if you aren't smooth enough.