Larry Herman

Ok, so what does everyone think that the new rules on contact should be? I have included a poll of what options that I think are viable, but certainly want discussion and possibly new ideas so we can build a consensus and present it to PCA.

Veloce Raptor

I vote for the NASA standard.

Jim Child

I view the 13/13 rule as applied by NASA GTS to be superior to PCA for the following reasons:

chrisp

so if we adopt the NASA standard do we need to mount cameras on our cars to properly place blame? The PCA 13/13 does have the same issue but the fact that there's a chance you may get improperly blamed (because they will always place blame) and have to live with it keeps a safe distance between cars. By safe I mean safe to the budget.

Larry Herman

I would like the NASA guys to chime in here and let those of us with PCA only experience know just how the NASA races are. Is there any more bumping and carnage than at a PCA race, and if so, is it due to more aggression, or just not as skilled drivers?

Bill L Seifert

The worst accidents I have seen at race tracks have been PCA's with 13/13's. Most SCCA races I go to there is no physical contact to speak of. Every PCA race I go to there is at least 1 or 2 BAD wrecks.

Personally, my two worst wrecks have been at PCA races. I'm not saying it was any more than cooinsidence, just a fact of where it happened. I go to 20+ SCCA races with no hits or anything, but go to my first PCA race in 5 years, and get rammed in the right rear quarter panel, with an unrepairable dent, and guess who gets the 13/13.

This is not a complaint, just what I have observed. I do think 13/13's are stupid, that is MHO.

Bill Seifert

1987 944S Race Car

Jim Child

I have experience in both PCA and NASA GTS. I haven't seen a significant difference in the amount of contact or the quality of the driving. Most of the new drivers coming into NASA GTS are coming from PCA and BMWCCA so it makes sense that there wouldn't be a difference.

Cris Brady

I've been doing both for 3,4 years now. When I was running my 911 in the NASA GTS classes, I got tapped by a driver who ran out of talent (and brakes) in a bone-headed move. But I had the same experience in PCA with another bone-headed punt taking me out of an enduro. All in all, the level of agression was similar. BTW, not all NASA classes use the 13/13 rule. Occasionally the race groups end up with a class that doesn't use it mixed with those who do. Generally that isn't a problem, most NASA drivers aren't bang-them-up drivers. However one of the HyperFests we had a driver who had done some pro-races who was of the opinion that the way to gain positions was to use the chrome horn. He was asked to leave by the NASA officials after complaints.

leif997

NASA rules sound good...I am a victim of a solo car wet track during warmup tire wall ding 13/13.....total BS...standing water at turn in at T3 at the summit race....no one ahead of me and no one immediately behind.....just cold, wet and slippery....pack your bags and go home.....

Bull

NASA rules sound right to me. My previous experience in SCCA was that there is little contact, and very little significant contact. Every time I have been involved in discussions about the ridiculous PCA 13/13 rule, the supporters of the rule go immediately to comments like "we don't want people going off and crashing all over the place", or "we don't want people running into each other all the time", etc. (the hysterical defense). They need to realize that there are realities at play that keep those types of situations from occurring.

944Cup

Cris is correct, there is not a NASA-wide 13/13 rule, in fact most race classes do not come under a 13/13 rule. Don't know about GTS, but for the 13/13 classes in NASA that I am familiar with (944 Cup, Spec E30, and Sports Racer), the 13/13 rule is not administered by NASA.

944 Cup uses a modified 13/13 rule similar to GTS, but the penalties for incidents are not the same as used by PCA. Rather, the first incident results in the guilty party(s) starting at theback of the pack for the next race, 2nd incident results in a DQ for the race, and for the 3rd the driver loses all points for year and is suspended for balance of season. This system of penalties would not work for PCA without points and a championship being in play.

JimmiLew

ChrisP Et Al,:

I had contact with a car at LRP some time ago. PCA decided we were both at fault. I used the video to show that we were door handle to door handle with me on the inside on the uphill, he didnt see me, he turned in and hit me. We both got a penalty at the track, and both got sent home, in Session One! My family had to go home without watching dad race. What a bummer. I appealed the penalty post facto, and national agreed with me, and the penalty was rescinded. That is of some consolation for sure, but what a bummer that my race weekend was terminated prematurely as a result of a conservative steward who wouldnt listen to reason, even though the video proved my case.

Lesson learned: Always have video running when you are racing.

I agree that one should always be in control of their car. But racing is racing and stuff does happen. In Lief's case, its just bad luck. Why should he be sent home? Single car incidents are self inflicted, harm no one but themselves, and shouldnt be penalized by being sent home. They have top pay for th repairs temselves, and that tends to sober one in direct ways. Colin's idea has merit. It causes some form of awareness in regards to priveledge to race, but isnt onerous.

I think NASA has it right, and PCA needs to adapt to the evolution of amateur racing and the rules that govern it. Competition is a good thing!

JL

analogmike

Does anyone drive differently due to the 13/13??

my priorities I think about when racing:

1) My family's welfare
2) My ***
3) My car
4) other cars
5) Getting someone pissed off at me for a bonehead move
6) 13/13

Ernie J

NASA rules, Twice, I have had 13s single car issues. 1 was caused by so much kitty litter on the track it was like snow, slid into tire wall. just needed to pull the fender out by hand, out for the weekend. For the expense inwhich we incur for a weekend we need to modify the 13/13 rules . I still think we need to have one but open it up.

RSRRacer

Well, I would modify:

1) My family's welfare
2a) How to pass the guy in front of me
2b) How to pass the guy in front of him
2c) How to pass the guy in front of him
2d) How to pass the guy in front of him
4e) How to pass the guy in front of him

....then pick up where Mike left off!

In all honesty he hit the nail on the head. I operated with one 13/13 applied to me in all of 2006, and I don't think my driving style or level of agressiveness changed at all during my most recent race at Sebring, which was my first "13-less" race as a non rookie.