chrisp

Are they sending people packing after the 1st 13 or for the 2nd? I understand the 2nd but not sure why they would for the first. It's by definition probation. If you get your car back in shape then you should be allowed to run assuming you haven't had a 2nd offense yet.

Maybe the rule should be 3 incidents in 13 months or 2 in 1 weekend whichever comes first. This way you always get to finish a weekend unless you're a real yahoo.

John H

TracKjunky
The other thing you'll find is that there will be more races closer to home.

Eric
I agree with you. I just hope NASA doesn't change too much trying to lure more PCA and BMW racers. I see changes coming that may wipe out the independant, "we're here to race not politic" attitude. Growing pains only, I hope.

John H

After the first 13, you are done for the weekend. After the second within the next 13 months, you're done til they let you back in.

supercup

Same thing happened to me at Laguna Seca, first session on Friday. Chairman was there and looked at video from my car and car behind and said, he got one for same thing, so he could not waive mine, although he agreed it was unavoidable. 7 cars out of 15 that went out went off track, 4 hit something and were sent home. All were single car incidents which I think should change. Otherwise the rule is fine if consistenly applied, which is very hard to do.

JCM

Bull

Excelent post Eric. Well thought out and well stated.

Mike in Chi

Eric in Chicago

I'm with Bull. Thank you for posting how the NASA system works. I'm very intrigued by this. It sounds very fair.

Given the severity of a second 13, I think a review/appeal process that does not involve the person who handed down the original verdict makes all kinds of sense.

This is nothing against the stewards and they way each one deliberates. They have a very difficult job. And I'm grateful to them for volunteering to undertake such hassle-filled responsibilities.

I do think the overwhelming response in these threads indicate a review of the current rules is in order.

Veloce Raptor

I know that, down here, NASA is becoming wildly popular, especially with the BMW crowd, as more & more racers flee the BMW club racing program for a variety of reasons.

Nader Fotouhi

I have not voted yet, but I thought that view from a newbe/rookie that has done a couple of races with NASA 44Cup and one with PCA.

I think that understand Colin's motive for his 6 1/2 and 9 3/4 options. He is trying to ensure that stupid moves are punished. However, based on my experience, you cannot legislate common sense any better than you can morality. So, I am not in favor of this minor mod. Eliminating 13/13 for single car incidence is the minimum to shoot for, but I prefer choice 3 and I have for the following reasons.

I watched several PCA races before I jumped in. Based on my observations, you can pick the same "type A" (read A$$hole with more $$$ than sense) people that probably scare the hell out of you on the way to the track or Grandma's house, as causing the most problem on the track. I think the only way to get rid of this type is to give them a lot of room (sometimes at the cost of loosing a position) or having a scrut or race director.

One thing that is different and I am not sure how it can be transfered from NASA to PCA is the structure of various Series. For example in NASA Mid-Atlantic where I race with 44Cup, the 44s and Spec E30 BMWs typically race in the same race group. Both of these series have 13/13 rules. I think the 13/13 rules work for thses series becasue each have a single Director that are usually/always present and enforce the rules in more or less consistent manner. As I see with PCA, each region has a different Scrut which could result in inconsisteny.

38D

The PCA races that I did in 2006 were plenty full (Sebring, Lime Rock, Watkins GLen, Mosport, Raod America and Daytona). At least on the east coast, I'm not sure there is much of a problem.


Eric, you made a lot of good points. I am definitely planning to try a NASA race at some point in the near future. My one complain with GTS is that power/weight does not tell the whole story at all. Other variables like gear ratios, aero and suspension matter just as much if not more. I think that GTS will struggle when someone builds a 6-speed, close ratio box, big wing, ultra light weight car with a modern multi-link suspenion. IMO it will be a class killer and show the issues in such a simple rule set.


Scruts & Stewards are national positions and people volunteer for the races they can work at. As with anything, different people will have different strengths & weaknesses...its human nature. I can see the advantage of a single person, but the problem is finding someone with that kind of time to dedicate.

Jim Child

Larry, thanks for bringing up this topic and conducting the poll. PCA's 13/13 rules and process have been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I'm very pleased to see that 82% of well over 100 people agree that change is needed. This poll should provide some good ammunition for a proposed rule change when the window opens for 2008 rules proposals later this year. My fear is that the powers that be within PCA will be very resistant to changing this rule. I suspect that they'll complain that this poll may include an unknown number of responses beyond the current population of PCA license holders.

If you're planning to conduct further polling I wonder if you can measure whether the respondents are current/prospective license holders vs. non license holders?

Larry Herman

Will do Jim. To address the "powers that be" issue, the question is simple. Is Club Racing a showcase for PCA or a racing venue for its members? If it is the latter, then they should be receptive to change.

38D

Larry, in your next poll, just ask people to post their name & race lic# in the thread.

Bull

Good point. I would hope that they would want to hear from other than PCA license holders, particularly if this 13/13 issues is a key reason why they race elsewhere. Same for perspective license holders that plan to race, but do it elsewhere. I've seen too many other instances where leaders use "our events are very popular" as the key reason not to make changes.

38D

Manny Alban

Instead of a poll, I'd like to see a detailed document on what, PCA Club Racing License holders, would like to see in a new 13/13 policy. Let's create a proposal that the majority agree on. Put this on the rules proposals that we read about each year in Club Racing News and the pca.org website. That document reaches every current license holder plus its available on the web in a document form for those non-license holders who are thinking about joining. Quite honestly, I haven't raced in NASA in four years, so I have no idea what their 13/13 program is about or how it specifically differs from PCA. What about BMWCCA club racing? Have they changed their program. BMWCCA is virtually a sister club of PCA. They are both car clubs with racing programs versus strictly a racing organization. Thoughts?