View Poll Results: What should the new 13/13 rule be?
Keep it the same as it is.
21
16.03%
Eliminate the 13/13 for single car accidents only.
27
20.61%
#2 plus minor car to car contact with no loss of control.
19
14.50%
Adopt the NASA standard where all 13/13s are discretionary.
64
48.85%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll
New 13/13 Rule
#46
Are they sending people packing after the 1st 13 or for the 2nd? I understand the 2nd but not sure why they would for the first. It's by definition probation. If you get your car back in shape then you should be allowed to run assuming you haven't had a 2nd offense yet.
Maybe the rule should be 3 incidents in 13 months or 2 in 1 weekend whichever comes first. This way you always get to finish a weekend unless you're a real yahoo.
Maybe the rule should be 3 incidents in 13 months or 2 in 1 weekend whichever comes first. This way you always get to finish a weekend unless you're a real yahoo.
#47
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TracKjunky
The other thing you'll find is that there will be more races closer to home.
Eric
I agree with you. I just hope NASA doesn't change too much trying to lure more PCA and BMW racers. I see changes coming that may wipe out the independant, "we're here to race not politic" attitude. Growing pains only, I hope.
The other thing you'll find is that there will be more races closer to home.
Eric
I agree with you. I just hope NASA doesn't change too much trying to lure more PCA and BMW racers. I see changes coming that may wipe out the independant, "we're here to race not politic" attitude. Growing pains only, I hope.
#49
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Originally Posted by leif997
NASA rules sound good...I am a victim of a solo car wet track during warmup tire wall ding 13/13.....total BS...standing water at turn in at T3 at the summit race....no one ahead of me and no one immediately behind.....just cold, wet and slippery....pack your bags and go home.....
JCM
#50
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Originally Posted by Eric in Chicago
Another perspective from an ex PCA'er, now NASA racer.
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#51
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Eric in Chicago
I'm with Bull. Thank you for posting how the NASA system works. I'm very intrigued by this. It sounds very fair.
Given the severity of a second 13, I think a review/appeal process that does not involve the person who handed down the original verdict makes all kinds of sense.
This is nothing against the stewards and they way each one deliberates. They have a very difficult job. And I'm grateful to them for volunteering to undertake such hassle-filled responsibilities.
I do think the overwhelming response in these threads indicate a review of the current rules is in order.
I'm with Bull. Thank you for posting how the NASA system works. I'm very intrigued by this. It sounds very fair.
Given the severity of a second 13, I think a review/appeal process that does not involve the person who handed down the original verdict makes all kinds of sense.
This is nothing against the stewards and they way each one deliberates. They have a very difficult job. And I'm grateful to them for volunteering to undertake such hassle-filled responsibilities.
I do think the overwhelming response in these threads indicate a review of the current rules is in order.
#53
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I have not voted yet, but I thought that view from a newbe/rookie that has done a couple of races with NASA 44Cup and one with PCA.
I think that understand Colin's motive for his 6 1/2 and 9 3/4 options. He is trying to ensure that stupid moves are punished. However, based on my experience, you cannot legislate common sense any better than you can morality. So, I am not in favor of this minor mod. Eliminating 13/13 for single car incidence is the minimum to shoot for, but I prefer choice 3 and I have for the following reasons.
I watched several PCA races before I jumped in. Based on my observations, you can pick the same "type A" (read A$$hole with more $$$ than sense) people that probably scare the hell out of you on the way to the track or Grandma's house, as causing the most problem on the track. I think the only way to get rid of this type is to give them a lot of room (sometimes at the cost of loosing a position) or having a scrut or race director.
One thing that is different and I am not sure how it can be transfered from NASA to PCA is the structure of various Series. For example in NASA Mid-Atlantic where I race with 44Cup, the 44s and Spec E30 BMWs typically race in the same race group. Both of these series have 13/13 rules. I think the 13/13 rules work for thses series becasue each have a single Director that are usually/always present and enforce the rules in more or less consistent manner. As I see with PCA, each region has a different Scrut which could result in inconsisteny.
I think that understand Colin's motive for his 6 1/2 and 9 3/4 options. He is trying to ensure that stupid moves are punished. However, based on my experience, you cannot legislate common sense any better than you can morality. So, I am not in favor of this minor mod. Eliminating 13/13 for single car incidence is the minimum to shoot for, but I prefer choice 3 and I have for the following reasons.
I watched several PCA races before I jumped in. Based on my observations, you can pick the same "type A" (read A$$hole with more $$$ than sense) people that probably scare the hell out of you on the way to the track or Grandma's house, as causing the most problem on the track. I think the only way to get rid of this type is to give them a lot of room (sometimes at the cost of loosing a position) or having a scrut or race director.
One thing that is different and I am not sure how it can be transfered from NASA to PCA is the structure of various Series. For example in NASA Mid-Atlantic where I race with 44Cup, the 44s and Spec E30 BMWs typically race in the same race group. Both of these series have 13/13 rules. I think the 13/13 rules work for thses series becasue each have a single Director that are usually/always present and enforce the rules in more or less consistent manner. As I see with PCA, each region has a different Scrut which could result in inconsisteny.
#54
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by timo944
Just vote with your $$$ - don't show up for PCA. They will eventually get the message, as if the already dwindling fields haven't bumped them.
Originally Posted by Eric in Chicago
There are other thing I like about NASA that have nothing to do with the 13 (true power to weight classification)
Originally Posted by Nader Fotouhi
One thing that is different and I am not sure how it can be transfered from NASA to PCA is the structure of various Series. For example in NASA Mid-Atlantic where I race with 44Cup, the 44s and Spec E30 BMWs typically race in the same race group. Both of these series have 13/13 rules. I think the 13/13 rules work for thses series becasue each have a single Director that are usually/always present and enforce the rules in more or less consistent manner. As I see with PCA, each region has a different Scrut which could result in inconsisteny.
#55
Three Wheelin'
Larry, thanks for bringing up this topic and conducting the poll. PCA's 13/13 rules and process have been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I'm very pleased to see that 82% of well over 100 people agree that change is needed. This poll should provide some good ammunition for a proposed rule change when the window opens for 2008 rules proposals later this year. My fear is that the powers that be within PCA will be very resistant to changing this rule. I suspect that they'll complain that this poll may include an unknown number of responses beyond the current population of PCA license holders.
If you're planning to conduct further polling I wonder if you can measure whether the respondents are current/prospective license holders vs. non license holders?
If you're planning to conduct further polling I wonder if you can measure whether the respondents are current/prospective license holders vs. non license holders?
#56
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Will do Jim. To address the "powers that be" issue, the question is simple. Is Club Racing a showcase for PCA or a racing venue for its members? If it is the latter, then they should be receptive to change.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#58
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Originally Posted by Jim Child
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If you're planning to conduct further polling I wonder if you can measure whether the respondents are current/prospective license holders vs. non license holders?
If you're planning to conduct further polling I wonder if you can measure whether the respondents are current/prospective license holders vs. non license holders?
#59
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Bull
I've seen too many other instances where leaders use "our events are very popular" as the key reason not to make changes.
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Instead of a poll, I'd like to see a detailed document on what, PCA Club Racing License holders, would like to see in a new 13/13 policy. Let's create a proposal that the majority agree on. Put this on the rules proposals that we read about each year in Club Racing News and the pca.org website. That document reaches every current license holder plus its available on the web in a document form for those non-license holders who are thinking about joining. Quite honestly, I haven't raced in NASA in four years, so I have no idea what their 13/13 program is about or how it specifically differs from PCA. What about BMWCCA club racing? Have they changed their program. BMWCCA is virtually a sister club of PCA. They are both car clubs with racing programs versus strictly a racing organization. Thoughts?