MikeQuig

I've been at PCA races where some of my fellow F'ers (particularly those currently on a 13) have declined to drive in the fun race simply because they feared getting a 13 (and bounced for a year + for those previously afflicted).

One friend raced for 3 years without one, then got back-to-back 13's and was on the outside looking in. It sucks, no one I race with is an "intimidator" except w/ their skills. No jerks who take delight in rubbing or bumping, just good hard racers who enjoy the competition. Have we touched? You bet, but I don't want to see anyone go home for minor contact with vertical surfaces or other drover's cars.

Make mine NASA!

Mike Quigley
Euro SC

AlpharettaRK

I see I'm in the minority, but I think the 13/13 rule should remain as is. I think it does work when overly aggressive guys go off grumbling to race with other groups. To me Porsche Club should do all it can to prevent contact. I can neither afford to fix my car nor be put in danger by somebody who's ego is connected to whether or not he wins a hat. We don't do this for a living, I'm in it for the safest possible competition in a dangerous sport.
In the case of one car incidents, the only difference between them and multi-car is dumb luck. And speaking of dumb luck I might be in favor of ading a discretionary clause, where 13's can be awarded for really stupid moves that only by virtue of dumb luck don't result in contact. I'm sure everybody has had experiences where they thought some guy should be pulled off the track before he hurts somebody.
Cheers
Randy

MikeQuig

I've run in SCCA races -- wild and wooly ITE -- where the racing was close -- as in Mustang/Camaro overpowers P-car on straight only to be re-passed in the infield. All great, close, non-contact racing. We all value our cars and don't want to use them as weapons. Some vintage races are crazier than any other series in which I've run -- remember Elkhart Lake in 2005? It is the ego factor that causes problems. Much more so than **** poor driving in my estimation.

Last weekend at Sebring, I would bet good money that there were more 13s handed out in the Cup Car group than any other. Is it that the cars are so capable that makes people not able to drive them well or just the egos?

Mike Quigley
Euro SC

Mike in Chi

I don't think the 13/13 in some form precludes good, hard door-to-door racing.

We were 5 or more wide going into One. Three wide in seven. Thrilling racing from my seat, but no swapping paint.

(At least that was what I counted when I had my eyes open)

Larry Herman

Let's keep this going. If you haven't voted yet, now's the time to do so. I'll wait till the weekend and post a second, more definitive poll.

Veloce Raptor

Larry, what is your opinion?

Larry Herman

I voted for option #3, but feel that option #4 has merit, especially in that there is historical data with which to evaluate it's impact on safety. When I raced in F troop, there was certainly minor front to rear contact with the front runners. More than a few times, my rear license plate came away dented, usually from the bunching at the starts. No one complained.

I think that PCA Club racers for the most part have moved away from the Vintage mindset, and it's popularity has begun to feed other venues (POC, NASA) that better address certain issues. I really like PCA racing and the cast of characters that participate and I do not want my car to get damaged, but I will balance that against having to go home because of $500 worth of damage. For the record, it cost me $7K in total to go to Daytona, and I would have been fit to be tied if a minor ding send me home without racing. I certainly would be looking for somewhere else to race permanently.

Veloce Raptor

Very well said.

Geoffrey

"More than a few times, my rear license plate came away dented, usually from the bunching at the starts. "

I thought the license plate was protected by the black bumperettes on the Carrera )

Larry Herman

Protruding tow hooks! My bumperettes took a beating too. Never had any problems with my front bumper though!

mein51

Discretionary rules will only be as good as those who hold the deciding vote.
While I have no actual race experience myself, I have heard of NASA incidents where a car has been punted off track from behind and nothing was done to the punter. I just worry about leaving stuff like that up to the jury - its easier to be mad at a rulebook than a committee.

}{arlequin

my only experience w/ the 13/13 left me thinking WTF is the point of it... i would much rather have a gathering of 10 people from the race to discuss what happened and then decide... another car's rear end t-boned my passenger side. i don't care how you look at it, but to me that signifies loss of control over the vehicle which resulted in contact. not only wasn't the driver 'awarded' w/ it, he was also permitted to continue racing the rest of the weekend. if this sort of incident doesn't bring up the sanction then what is it used for?

agree that single car incidents shouldn't be counted unless it ends up affecting/causing damage to other cars.

timo944

Just vote with your $$$ - don't show up for PCA. They will eventually get the message, as if the already dwindling fields haven't bumped them.

Eric in Chicago

Another perspective from an ex PCA'er, now NASA racer.
I picked up two 13's three years apart. 1st was a GT car hitting me on the passg.side behind the door after I was past the apex. Corner worker was not watching, neither of us was running video. Minor damage to me, loss of front strut for the very experienced GT racer (I was in my second year of club racing at the time, he was a well know local racer) Fact is, the GT car tried to squeeze underneath me and could not hold the line. 13 for me. Continued to race with PCA for a couple more years without anything close to contact. Then I got tagged in the rear at Road America in a braking zone, went to the tower saw the video, scruits cleared me, all was good. The driver that hit me is a buddy of mine, a little later (a hour or so) he came up to me as I was packing up and told me the scruits wanted to see me and they reversed their 13 decision. Said scruit was busy on pit lane running the pit lane radar gun and the conversation was pretty strained with the noise of the cup engines, he told me to appeal, end of discussion.. Both events were appealed but the process with PCA is your appeal goes to the scruit that handed you the 13 in the first place???? I realize you can’t fight the system so I went to NASA. I have seen more than a few hard wrecks at PCA where the drivers got off on mechanical failure (the trans locked, the brakes failed, ect) Of course when said car is destroyed, it is easy to claim mechanical. Ok rant off.
After racing 2 season with NASA I have seen a few incidents but no where close to the carnage of PCA. Granted there are fewer cars at the local NASA races and no where near the turnout of a Sebring or Road America. The racing in NASA has been very clean. Even with mixed class racing (groups running with GTS that don’t have 13/13 rules). Has there been contact, sure, but pretty limited. I have only seen 1 car that was a write off (at Nationals, single car, driver’s error). This past year I was asked to be on the NASA "Incident Review Board"(IRB) for the national championship race at Mid Ohio. The IRB was made up of racers from our race group (GTS and spec BMW). There were 6 of us and for the first 2 qualifying races we did not have a lot to look at (1 incident) The Championship race had a few more car to car contacts, 3 if I recall. The race field was 55 plus cars. The IRB review each event, interview each driver, written description from each driver, written description from the corner workers, video tape from each car (if aval) as well as talking to other racers that may have been in the area when the contact happened) Each incident took 30-45 mins to review. A majority vote was needed to hand out a 13 and there were some heated discussions on the IRB. 2 things really stood out, the corner workers perception of what happened often differed from what we saw on tape, 2 of the 3 incidents if left to the corner workers description would have been wrong. the 2nd surprise was the veracity of the arguments to keep someone from getting a 13. To set the stage, we just finished a 40 min championship race (we met 10 mins after impound) 6 sweaty guys still in suits, family and friends waiting in the paddock to congratulate the drivers and we are deciding drivers fate. There were 2 cars that were under review that if they were penalized would have improved position of members of the IRB, the guys on the IRB that fought the hardest for no 13 were the ones that would have benefited most if we penalized the drivers under review. Noble? I don’t think so.. As tired as we were, everyone realized the seriousness of our decisions We knew the ramifications of a quick judgment, maybe that is why we were so serious about our decisions and the process.. As a racer, I would hope that if I was involved in contact, I would get the same consideration. The guys that got the 13's or modified 13's (6 months probation for one) were not as upset as they witnessed a process that they viewed as fair . If the drivers with the 13 did not agree, there was a national review board (not a single person) that they could appeal to. I don’t know if any of them did but the process was aval. I miss racing with my buddies at PCA events, half the fun of a race weekend was hanging out with guys you only get to see once or twice a year or meeting someone from Rennlist in person. But the reality is I spend my winter prepping my car to race, I spend a pretty fair amount of money on this habit and the time away from the family and job are not insignificant. I want to race, I don’t want to go home from a weekend because someone tapped me in the rear or if I spun out on track and collected a tire wall (never happened but have seen many people pack up and go home for single car accidents). I choose NASA because it is racing, with the emphasis on racing. Not coucours, not big parties, not 300K trailers and crews, just guys and girls that want to race and are willing to assume the risks of this sport (no knock intended to my PCA brothers some of the best racers in the country run PCA) It is the mindset of those that govern the club race rules and policies of PCA that I don’t agree with. The rules and lack of black and white 13 rules have me enjoying NASA so much that my little old F car has been converted to a GTS car without looking back. There are other thing I like about NASA that have nothing to do with the 13 (true power to weight classification) but this thread is not about why NASA is better than PCA. If PCA put into place the same review process as NASA, took the politics out of the process I would come back. I miss PCA but not enough to spend my time and money with them. Please don’t take this post as a bitter ex PCA racer, I understand what PCA is about, I think they have lost a little of their vision but the people are good, the racers are excellent, the events run like a Swiss clock. This is a great country, we get choices and I have made mine. Come check NASA out, you wont be disappointed

trackjunky

After reading this post, I think that I need to give NASA some greater thought. Jim makes some great selling points about GTS and it sounds like the racing is clean.

For people like me who can't afford to do more than 3-5 races/year, PCA would lose me due to the fear of a 13 in a single car incident, and the fact that they have made my car uncompetitive in a stock based category.

Great thread.