BrianKeithSmith

Everyone:

Last weekend I went to a 3 day event at VIR with my 930. One thing I noticed was that the pads I was using (Performance Friction 90 Compound) were not working very well. Stopping power was not impressive and the pads were not wearing down at all.

After alot of thought and talking to other people, it seems that the 90 compound pad may require more heat in order to work well, and evidently I was not reaching that heat range.

So I'm looking for other pads. What is the most common pad used for DE events/track days with fairly stock 911's/930's.

Pagid Blues? Oranges? Hawks?

Tell me your success stories with your various pads.

Thanks.

Brian Keith Smith
My 930

Dbltime

Hello Brian,

I am not sure if this will be helpful or not but add it to the mix.

I found that as my driving improved I had to add skills form the basic. From the line, turn in, fast out of the turn, heel & toe and the very last, faster into the turn= faster out. I drove 8 events without putting a dent in my brake pads. Now with gradually going deeper into the turn in before braking they get a good work out. I switched to Pagid Racing pads. I stayed slow into the turn which did not require red hot braking until I got the other skills under control.

See you at the track!

BrianKeithSmith

Bill:

I agree with you. I am heel-n-toeing while downshifting and cornering and trail-braking in some instances.

But what concerns me is that when I was hitting the pedal, which was strong and solid, the brakes didn't seem to be working that well, especially at the end of the straights. At the end of the straights I was standing on the brakes trying to get it to stop, and it would stop, but as my instructor said, the Turbo brakes should be stopping the car better. So evidently I do have a brake pad/brake issue.

Once again, the pedal is strong, so no evidence of master cylinder problems, caliper problems, etc.

Thanks Bill.

Brian

Bill Gregory

Brian,

I've used Pagid Oranges at the track for years. First on 911SC brakes, then on 930 Turbo brakes (mounted on the SC). While they can work on the street OK (the 930 pads, when cold, squeel like a pig), they work very well on the track. And as the rotor heats up, they just grab better and better. They're not cheap (around $175 per axle) but I wouldn't use any other pad.

ian

Brian,

I was recently in the same boat that you are in (using a 944 Turbo not a 911 Turbo, but some of the same concepts do apply). I was not getting the braking out of my car that I really wanted or thought I should be having.

First on my list of things to do was to completely bleed the brake fluid and switch over to ATE super Blue (or gold). I don't know if you are using a high peformance brake fluid but this little swap helped out a lot with how much grip I was getting with the pads.

Next I did upgrade my pads, I went to Hawk HPS (high performance street). These pads are great on the street and they don't have as much fade as the OEM pads, but once really hot they start to loose their grip. But if you want a dual natured pad these might be the ones to go with. After riding with a guy who had the hawk racing pads on his car during my last trip to the track I have decided to go wtih a set of hawk racing pads and to just swap pads out when I get to the track (I have to swap wheels anyway, so it is no big deal). I thought the performace of these pads was incredible, they are a bit less pricy than the pagids so I think they are a very good buy.

I'm not sure if any of this was help full, but to sum it up, I like Hawk's product, I'm a bit sleep and for some reason I'm awake still a 6 am, so it is time for me to go to sleep.

And as a side note, like many people say, you should improve the driver first by getting as much track time as possible. Maybe i'll see you around at the track, VIR, Road Atlanta, and CMP are the ones I'll be at most often.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Brian,

Sounds like you might have glazed your pads. If you did not properly bed them in before hard use, they might be done. When pads are not bedded in properly, the first really hard heat cycle will melt the pad material and then that melted material will glaze on the outside of the pad. The only solution I have heard to this is to take them to a machine shop and have them remove the top couple of millimeters. Doesnt always work though.

How was VIR besides the brakes? I am still sorry I meiised it. Any chance you will be at the G7W weekend on Dec 1?

E. J.

Dbltime

Good point E.J.. When we installed the new pads Ivan drove the car to 100, hard brake to about 45. Did this about 10 times or so. We did not look out of place on the D.C. Beltway either.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Here is Pagids recommended break in procedure from their website:

RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE FOR THE BEDDING
IN OF PAGID RACING DISC BRAKE PADS.

PLEASE NOTE:
IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE BEDDING IN
PROCEDURES ARE BEING DONE ONLY ON A RACE TRACK.
PAGID RACING MATERIAL IS NOT LEGAL FOR STREET USE.


GEOMETRIC ALIGNMENT OF PAD SURFACE
TO BRAKE DISC BASIC BEDDING IN.

3-4 stops with light to medium brake pressure from

V (start) approx 150 km/h (90 MPH) to V(finish) approx 100 km/h (65 MPH).

Distance between each brake stop approx 300-400 meters (300 to 400 yards).

The pads should not reach temperatures above 300-400

Centigrade (550 to 750 Fahrenheit) during bedding in.




IMMEDIATELY AFTER BEDDING IN AT HIGH SPEED
One stop with medium to heavy brake pressure

(without allowing brakes to lock from V

(start) approx 180 km/h (110 MPH)

to V (finish) approx 100 km/h (65 MPH).

Recovery stops with light brake pressure 2-3 times.

Repeat the high speed stops, including recovery stops, 1-2 times.

Allow a cooling-off distance of approx 500 m (500 yards) between high speed stops.




MOUNTING NEW PADS ON USED DISCS
Edges of pad surface should be filed approx 45 degrees to ensure that the pad

carries fully and evenly and is not touching the edge of the disc. Do not use discs

which are pre-bedded, or have been used with friction material other than PAGID.


RECOMMENDED DISCS

PAGID recommends using grooved/slotted

or cross drilled brake discs with our PAGID racing pads.


See it here


YMMV!

E. J.

belz

Hey Brian,
I have never used PF90 pads so I can't comment specifically. However I think the thread is going in the right direction. Don't discount air in the lines. Assuming you're confident there are no issues with master cylinder / brake fluid / brake lines etc. than I would say it's down to the pads and/or rotors. Not being familiar with the PF90 pad I'm not sure of their recommended bedding procedure but, as suggested, that could certainly be the issue. You could also have "bad" pads. I gave up on Porterfield pads because of inconsistent quality and corresponding poor performance.
Finally, I spoke with the "brake guy" from Team Kool Green (CART)a few years back about brakes etc. and he explained a symbiotic relationship between the pad and rotor. Every pad leaves a "film" on the rotor, which for that specific pad/rotor combination actually helps with the overall braking performance. If you switch between different pad types on the same rotor you may not be realizing the full braking potential of any given pad. Thus, if you installed the PF90 pads on a used rotor this may be the root cause of your poor performance issue.
Comment regrading PAGID pads ... (IMO) the reason I don't use PAGID is because of the complex bedding requirements ... What did that say?????
Guess I'm a simpleton
Most people seem to love 'em ... maybe I'm missing something but I know I won't follow the bedding procedure thus, I may ruin an expensive set of pads.
(always looking for something better... I'm currently using Hawk Blue race pads)

Greg Fishman

Belz,
I don't thik you are missing anything. I saw a huge improvement when going to Hawk Blues from Pagid orange. I go through rotors more often but they sure do work.
Greg

BrianKeithSmith

Ian:

I had bled the brakes prior to going that weekend and have always used ATE Super Blue. No problems at any of my prior events with anything brake related. So the issues I had on that weekend were the 1st time I had experienced any brake problems.

And like I said, the pedal was stiff. No pedal fade, no loss of fluid anywhere, so I'm convinced it is a pad or rotor or pad/rotor issue.

OK, so it looks like the final word is everyong is happy with Hawks and Pagids.

That is what I was looking for.

And for those of you who don't purchase Performance Friction pads, they come pre-bedded. There is no bed-in procedure for them. I spoke to one of their techs about this for a good 10-15 minutes because I was somewhat skeptical. But no bed-in for PF90s.

Thanks everyone.

Brian

belz

FYI: Here is a quote from "Inside Racing Technology":
"Brake Bedding
One of those complications familiar to racers is "brake bedding." New disc-brake pads and rotors need to go through a specific process before they can be asked to perform reliably and efficiently under race conditions. Rotor and friction material manufacturers provide guidelines but most club racers and race teams seem to develop their own routines which generally means several laps on track alternating partial applications with cooling periods and then ending the process with a full-hard brake application followed by a gradual cooling. It's important that the racecar doesn't stop when pads and rotor are hot. This can result in uneven rotor cooling and deposition of pad material onto the rotor.

This bedding process accomplishes several tasks. It drives off volatiles from the pads that can otherwise lubricate the rotor/pad interface during hard braking causing the dreaded "green fade" that can send the driver and car spinning off into the weeds. Bedding also thermally relaxes the rotor, removes any burrs or machining oils from the rotor, and wipes a layer of pad material onto the rotor surface creating an almost mystical marriage between the rotor and the brake pads. Properly done this process insures good performance from the rotor and pads."

Brian- Hawk Brake pads are "pre-bedded" as well. As you can see from the above quote, the pad is only half the story. The pads may be "pre-bedded" (whatever that means & how ever they do that) but you still have to "marry" your pads to your rotors ... I call that bedding. Maybe there is a better or different term?
Who'd ever thought brake pads / rotors could be so technical?

Bill Gregory

Performance Friction does something similar, I believe they call it "laser burnishing", so you don't have to worry about green fade. When I used PF pads, however, I still went through the break-in process....just in case

belz

Bill-
Thank You ... Hawkpads are "burnished" not "bedded" as well. My mistake.
Is burnishing a brake pad the same thing as bedding?
I'm under the impression that burnishing is a process only done to the pad. (still don't really understand how they do it?) and bedding is the process of "marrying" the pad to the rotor.
Thus, even with a burnished pad, one must still complete a bedding process.
Anyone care to add to this?

belz

OK... curiosity got the best of me and I went into my shop and dug out a set of new Hawk pads (blue) and read the stuff inside. Here is an exact quote from Hawk:

FERRO-CARBON RACING BRAKE PADS

Brake Pad Burnishing Procedure:

Although Hawk Performance pads are burnished at the factory, a transfer film must be generated on your rotors to achieve maximum performance. If using new or used rotors you must follow the steps listed below to acheive maximum brake performance.
Step 1- Slowly engage brakes 6 to 8 times at medium speeds. Do not drag brakes or come to a complete stop.
Step 2- Increase speeds to simulate race conditions; allow 6 to 8 Very Hard stops at racing speeds.
Step 3- Allow brakes to cool for 15 minutes or more. Do not engage brakes during cooling period.
Your rotors and Hawk Performance pads are now ready to race! Do not sand the brake pads or rotors after this procedure has been completed.