FTS

I am wondering if throughout PCA or at least throughout a region, run groups map 1-1. For example, should students expect white or black groups in one chapter/region to be comparable to others within the PCA world.

And if they are not, if you are promoted to a higher group in one chapter's event, is that valid in another chapter's event?

Any thoughts from our instructors?

Thank you,

Bob Rouleau

From what I have seen, the performance of drivers in supposedly equivalent run groups is quite variable. The most consistency is usually in Red,but even there the differences can be occasionally be striking.

Willard Bridgham 3

White run group is probably ther only run group about which you can generalize....they no longer have an instructor and get the red mist.......

TD in DC

I don't even think you can generalize about the white run group.

The white run group can be interesting because it seems to be the group that contains the greatest variety of experience and skill levels, which really has nothing to do with red mist. You have some drivers who belong in the advanced groups at one end of the spectrum, and other drivers who have just squeeked out of the beginner groups. Put them on the track together without instructors and you are bound to have a few interesting moments as one driver's fast is another driver's sunday driving, not to mention that what is driving with confidence to the advanced drivers may appear to be unnecessarily aggressive to the less experienced drivers.

In order to get point bys in white while driving a n/a 944, I had to be far more aggressive than I have ever had to be in the black run group, but my aggression had nothing whatsoever to do with red mist. It was a necessity to get people driving cars with far greater horsepower to put their left arm out. The more uncomfortable I made them in the corners, the less likely they would stick their arm out the window and then out drag me down the straight. I found that there was a direct relationship between "lack of comfort" and "degree of lift" on the straight. Of course, I didn't do it the first time I came up on someone, but after I lost a drag race, I assumed my intentions had been misunderstood. Since it is white group, other drivers do not always assume that their co-drivers are peers or better. In the advanced groups, there seems to be an assumption that most people belong there, and if someone doesn't, everyone seems to know that too.

The other factor in white is that the members of the white group tend to change more frequently. When you run with basically the same group of drivers, you get to know them and that makes everything easier. When the group of drivers is always changing, it takes time for people to get used to the styles and skills of their fellow run group drivers. By the second or third day things calm down.

I am in black group, but I was promoted at the beginning of this year so I remember very well what it was like in white. Black is so much easier . . . .

I have found that the experience level of the various groups is dramatically different between regions. From Potomac, I don't feel out of place in any other region's equivalent group. In some regions, I feel that I could easily move up a group (and actually should).

Gary R.

Every region (I have experienced anyway) here on the east coast is "similar", but there can be a big skill/speed varience within the mixed region's group. The fact is the same thing can be said of a group composed of a singular region's members due to the way people are promoted and the fact that there are only 5 groups to classify people into. You always have to keep the thought that we are all here to have fun and learn to drive better. The guy that is putting along in front of you may have 10 years experience but is only comfortable going so fast, and has moved up over time because he is an excellent, smooth driver.

You can certainly ask to be moved up once you show your ability. On two seperate occasions I have run with other regions that have done this without my even asking. In one case I even told my instructor (this region required an instructor in all run groups for 1st time on a new track, which is a great idea BTW) I had no problem playing in slower traffic and I knew all groups were crowded already. Four laps into the 1st run he pulled me in and moved me up..
The move is only valid for that region, each region is it's own entity. "Usually" your home region's group is the one you go by when registering elsewhere...

Todd!! Out-typed me again!

Geoffrey

The groups vary from region to region based on their DE program. I think you'll find students are in the lower groups longer in the larger regions like NNJR, CVR, Potomic where they have well defined criteria for advancement and usually 2 instructor signoff for advancement. In the smaller regions, the programs are less well defined and they tend to get people from other regions in the program so there isn't much documentation as people come in and out of the program. In our HV Region for instance, we have only about 10-15 members at our track events, so we have another 50-70 drivers from neighboring regions. We also combine green and yellow so in effect have 1 novice group.

So, yes, it does vary.

Palting

I'm not an instructor, but I can give you what I've noticed over 4 years going with several different PCA clubs.

Run groups are NOT equivalent from one club to another. Heck, not even from one DE to another within the same PCA club. Certainly, an effort is made to classify drivers according to experience, but the biggest factor I've found has to do with distribution of the participants.

Let me give you some examples. My wife, an absolute novice, obviously went to the "Green" group (Class D) first time out. This was a one day event. On her second outing, they put her in the C group, simply because there were a lot of "never been to any track" drivers that occupied the D group. She still did fairly well, eventually caught on, but she spent a lot of time watching her mirrors and giving point-by's the first few runs.

I ended the 2004 season 2 years ago in the A group. Did well, had a blast. Next season, spring 2005, there were a whole bunch of race drivers wanted to get in early to test and tune and what not. Result? I was now back in B group for the actual DE due to the exceptionally large numbers of experienced race drivers who signed up. In that B group with me were a lot of drivers who actually had more experience than I. I spent the rest of the year and this year in the A group, but there may come a time again when a large number of drivers more experienced than I show up and I will again be relegated to the B group. It may or may not happen, since most of the drivers with more expererience than I are now racing and go to different events altogether.

Matt Romanowski

The groups really differ. Depending on the region, they may have different criteria. Overall, I think the driving experince is pretty similar, but the cars are not. In most regions I run in Red as an instructor. At some events and in some regions, I run in black as an instructor becuase of the speed differentials. I'm no match for cup cars.....

Matt

Larry Herman

I think that the white (middle) group has the most variation among clubs. It really depends on how many drivers are moving up the ladder too. The differential in ability and lack of instruction in the white group is one issue that we at Riesentoter are addressing. We have had a white group class for the last few years, taught on & off by various instructors, but for next year I am planning with the new CI to take the white group "under my wing" and have regular classes at each event, plenty of available instruction and more dialogue between the drivers. This can help the new white drivers get acclimated more quickly, and identify which drivers should move to black due to ability, and not just seat time.

renvagn

Larry, that is good to know. With your 40 years of experience I hope the class is open to everyone.

M758

Run group NAMES are NOT consistant from PCA region to PCA region. Red, white, black, green blue are all meaningless to Az region drivers. Sometimes we use red for novice, other times our groups are Novice 1, Novice2, (both same skill level) Beginner, intermediate, advanced , expert. Other times we don't use all those names.

Most PCA regions have multiple groups with varying skills that may approximate the groups you are familiar with. Most regions will have similar entry level groups and top "instructor" run groups. The run groups inbetween will vary depending on how many groups that PCA region typically has. Some run 5 or 6 run groups and some just 3 (I have seen even just 2 at select events).

If you are signed off solo in one region that may not mean much in another region especially if you have never driven that particular track. If they use the same track then you probably can go into an equvalent run group as this sort of thing is probably common.

Passing zones and rules may vary from region to region as well. Always check with hosting region to understand how these work.

M758

Intersting you note the group change. It seems like for some folks their is a badge of honor to be in a certain group. "I run XX group, therefore I am cool." In your case it seems like they set-up the groups depending on field size at each event. So Group A may be the fastest group, but you could be in A one event and B the next depending on car counts. That in may ways is similar to what happens in Az. We have 4 or so groups, but that number tends to vary depending on the event and who signs up. If alot of race cars show up then we may have a group just for race cars and top street car group too. Sometime we have 2 "first timer" novice groups due to numbers and total instrutor counts. Seems to me that most folks around here just want to get track time and have fun and care less about "which group" they are signed off to run in.

renvagn

Larry, that is good to know. With your 40 years of experience I hope the class is open to everyone.

FTS

Thank you so much to all for replying and enlightening a greener like myself. I think it is at least an interesting discusion. I have heard that PCA has some effort already in place to somewhat standardize instructor training, which invaluable I believe.

The question in my mind also is should we have an effort in place, similar to what Larry is trying to do with the White group, to have common and may be region-wide or nation-wide student skill evaluations and run-group standardization. This may not be feasible for the Black and Red run groups (based on Palting's feedback), but probably would be quite useful in lower run-groups, or would it actually be of any use and the current systems is good enough.

Obviously, this is not about the "badge of honor", but more about safety and value offered by the DE. Additionally, I think the run-group classification for students should probably be done per track vs. just general skill level. I, for example, now feel very comfortable with any configuration of VIR but totally uncomfortable with Summit Point, Watkings Glenn, Mid-Ohio, Pocono, etc. But I don't think it is feasible to rate someone per track unless the definition and qualifications of run-groups are standardized at least acroos a region.

I might obviously be totally off base here as I have very limited experience with DEs. Again, thank you for all your opinions.

Jay Gratton

I totally agree with Matt. Since I drive an under powered car I sometimes get moved to black even though I am an instructor and have a lot of seat time. However, HP sometimes beats out seat time. - Jay