38D

The cones at DEs are always set for a very late apex. This is a safe approach, and one that should be taken as you are learning. As you progress, you start to realize where the "real" apex is (which is earlier than the DE cone). So you don't want to be earlier than the real apex, but you don't want to be later either.

Here's a couple of screen shots from the videos. You can see how wide you are in the Carousel vs. my line which is much tighter. This is an "early apex" from a DE point of view.

purplehaze.

I didn't know that about the DE cone placement. They felt "late" at times when I figured I was early apexing.

Thanks for the screen shots. They help. I need to get in sooner to the apex, then back on the throttle more quickly.

Thanks -

Glenn

ZBlue996Kam

"Car is stock, except for the mods. Driver is stocky."

Looks familiar!

Larry's is 100% stock except for the mods and he is kind of stocky too. We only need one Larry.

purplehaze.

Good catch Blue996Kam!

I knew I "borrowed" that from someone here, as it's a great line. But come on, the stocky part was pretty good, no?

RedlineMan

Hey Hotrod;

Don't necessarily try that stuff at home, as it were. The guys you are talking about and too are pretty experienced. Not to be a smartarse, but some of them have also wadded a car getting there. Take your time and pay your dues learning this stuff. Not trying to smack you down, just preserve a nice car... so I hear. I don't want to see anyone getting hurt, and there is enough bent tin already.

You should find that what you are talking about will happen naturally. When you get to the next level, the need for it will arise automatically. The Late Apex as Early as Possible idea is a bit of word play, of course. What you may and should find someday as you progress is that if you carry a little more speed into the turn-in area using the late/wide-turn-in DE approach, you feel like you are going to fly off the road. You just don't feel you can make it turning so late and from such a wide point. The place where this is most apparent to me is Turn 9, and it is REALLY apparent!

Now you are ready to start doing your late apex earlier. Because you are carrying so much speed, you initiate your turn in earlier. The momentum you are carrying swings you a bit wider than you are probably thinking. If the car is set up right, the rear will walk out just a tad more than the front, and rotate the car nicely toward the apex. You start in closer to the apex, but the momentum and timing see you clip the same point as before. The difference is a LOT more speed. It's all quite necessary (in some turns).

Your brake lock problem (front, I assume) is most likely the result of soft front springs, by the way.

bobt993

As Larry said in another thread, until you can drive the back end of the car to induce neutral and or oversteer accurately, don't jump on an early turn-in. I spent two days doing this on safer tracks with white students last weekend for advanced driving technics. Larry has been instrumental in my adapting to this, but pick a track like Pocono or safe corners at VIR to learn this technic. If you hit the outer loop hot and can't feel the rotation early enough, you my friend will buy a blue guard rail.

purplehaze.

John and Bob -

Thanks for the feedback.

I know I shouldn't rush this progression and I appreciate the reminder. 500+ HP in no-acronym-assisted car takes some getting used to. Cracked up at the "Hey Hotrod" comment.

I do understand what you both refer to - early turn, pivoting the car, slight throttle off rotation then back on. I did it in my old 87 carrera but haven't got it dialed in this yet. From the video I can now see I didn't actually practice that move, at all. Different suspension, and a lot of respect/fear for that back end coming around, but I'll try it next time.

John - I NOW understand what Larry referred to earlier - the ealy late apex thing - from your description. THANKS!

I remember turn 10 was a good one to practice turning in earlier than I thought possible. A trip down to VIR may be justified now as well.

Re: Brake lock, yes, it was the front. I'm running 450/650 coils over revavled Bilstein RSR's. It's not a full track beast as I'm still playing with it on the street. Carbon/metallic Perf Friction's, big red fronts and I think 930 rear calipers, 245/305 Hooisers on 9&12/18 CCW's. Recently bled. Still think it's springs?

Glenn

Conekiller

Glenn

looking good can't wait to see you in action on the 27th

Mike

RedlineMan

No;

I was assuming stock. Silly me... I don't know what the rest of your setup is. Perhaps a 3/8-1/2" ride height change (lower in front or higher in rear) would alter that? You should have enough spring pushing the tires into the track in front. Now it sounds like you might just need a little more weight on the front. Or perhaps a bias change to increase the rear a tad.

Interesting. Turn 10 is NOT a turn I want to take early. Of course... I've got about 350 less HP than you, so I'm not exactly getting a lot of speed or rotation there. 10 might be OK, but make up your mind to bail early if it aint right. No place to go if you get to track out... and RUN out.

purplehaze.

Thanks John.

Hadn't thought of the pitch of the car, had considered adj bias valve. I'll need to get it diagnosed as I don't feel the brakes quite match the HP. I think the big reds are doing their job up front, but disproportionate to the rears. Maybe I'll leave in the spare as well. Oh, nice website, and incredible project cars!

I'll go to my secret practice parking lot and see if I can't get the rear to come around - under control of course.

Mike - Looking forward to seeing you on the 27th. I think you'll have a blast with HVR at LRP!

Glenn

38D

These are definitely advanced techniques that should be respected. That being said, I do think that many people can start to try them earlier than I did, with some guidance.

As for wadding a car, it's not a question of if, but when. It is an unfortunate part of the sport, but one that is exists at all levels...even in the pro ranks. To me the key is to have a healthy respect for the potential for damage, but not to dwell on it. Oh, and have all the safety equipment you can. A student of mine at LR this year had a full cage & HANS. Some instructors may have thought this excessive, but I think it shows a great understanding of how serious this sport is.

purplehaze.

Wise words, Colin. These ARE advanced techniques, and I'm trying to avoid that dreaded car wadding.

For my first time at WGI in this car, (2nd time ever) I was pleased to get wet and dry exposure. Really helped learn the limits and find it was more balanced/predicatble than I thought.

It's painful to watch the video now - as I can see how late I am in getting back on the gas. In due time. At my first DE with this car (this March at LRP), I didn't get on the gas until the car was dead straight. Then, gently. I'm working up to it.

The car had the roll bar, I added new 6 pts, racing shells, and HANS. And XL size Depends (TM) for when I get too cocky. Cage will come next if I pursue racing, but that's not the plan.

Thanks a lot for the input!

Glenn

Gary R.

Glenn - your humility and grace at accepting all the input will get you MILES ahead very quickly. Kudos to you my friend!

purplehaze.

Thank you Gary!

Any time I start to get a fat head (more often than I'd like to admit), I stop learning. There is a lot of expertise here and it's only a plus that I open my ears.

Besides, being called "Hotrod" puts me back in place with a smile.

When I left Watkins Glen Tuesday, I suspected I could have done a few things differently to be faster.

Now, I KNOW several of those things and can't wait to apply them. Thanks to the input from those here.

Of course now I also want to delete the videos in shame .... but that's my past.

Glenn

smankow

Glenn, just a few points from a fellow white driver and one who just started w/video.

1. each weekend, try to get an instructor to ride with you and try to ride with instructors
2. use the video as a learning tool. You mentioned that you never stop learning, so use the video as a reference point in your learning.
3. what's up with all of the hand movement on the wheel?


Keep up the good work.


Steve
2003 996