JBH

BKS comments at a recent driver's education event got me thinking. Here are my suggestions for making Driver's Ed safer and more fun for all. Remember, these are just suggestions. If you don't like them, feel free to criticize, but also make some of your own. It's just a dialog...

1. Cars exceeding 300 rwhp (or some number) be equipped with roll bar and harnesses. I think I remember, certain racetracks require roll cages in drag racers that eclipse a specified 1/4 mile et. I am suggesting something similar here, because at some point the car's potential is far greater than the student's experience..

2. Speed limits be imposed on the beginners/novice group. That speed depends on the track and when it is imposed, it could replace the roll bar/harness requirement above.

3. Run groups are developed both on the basis of experience and horsepower. Large differentials in speed creates a dangerous driving environemnt. For example, Red: high hp + high experience; Black: low hp + high experience; White: high hp + intermed experience; Blue: low hp + intermed. experience; Green: all hp + beginners/novices with speed limits. It's not perfect, but something like that.

4. Limit the size of run groups. This is driver's education and people need to have the opportunity to work on their line, braking and shifting without constantly trying to pass someone ahead or being forced to point by those behind.

5. Drivers ed should include not only instruction on driving, but also car preparation, inspection and maintenance - at least as a small segment of the classroom sessions.

M758

Nice idea, but highly un workable since all 911's since 2000 or so are 300+ hp machinces. I know that nearly all track newbies are not interested in putting a roll bar (mostly drilling holes) just to "try out the track thing"


Nice idea, but this should be done by the instructor and not by group rule. IE 100 mph? 120 mph, etc. Each instructor should set a speed limit to their driver if they feel it is required. This limit may increase during the day or not as the driver's skills improve. I don't like are hard rule for this as it may cause more problem than it solves. I do however feel that going 150-160 in "street" is probably not a good idea, but let the instructor be the speed limiter.

That is not a bad idea if you have the run groups to allow it. Seperating high hp cars from lower hp cars is nice since in any group (even racing) great handling low hp cars can't pass poor handling high hp very easily. This would minimize this. The down side is this doubles the run groups. A 3 teired run experience system would need 6 run groups. I think you need AT LEAST 3 experience levels, with 4 being the best. However you can get smart and go with one Level 1 group, then break out level 2,3 in high hp /low hp and leave all level 4 guys in one group with the realization that they can probalby "handle the speed differental better" The place where drivers have more issue with speed/hp differential are the intermediate groups as novice first timers tend all to drive a slower speeds inspite of their cars.


Great Idea and PCA already has rules on cars per mile. These are derived from the PCA DE insurance. These however could get more scrutiny from the stand point of traffic. Maybe novice groups are run 80% of current "limit" where the instructor group is allow to be a 100% car per mile limits.

Another great idea. We don't need to make or expect all drivers to be "techs", but they should be aware enough to know simple things like checking fluids, tires, brakes, and proper use of safety grear.

Geoffrey

I think the less rules the better which is how our club is run. Most Porsches sold today has over 300hp and a new owner is not going to install all of the safety equipment on his/her first track day. The car should meet basic tech inspection standards. The goal is not to keep people from driving, but to encourage them to drive and enjoy the sport in a safe manner. Too many times I've seen track day tech line people looking for things to send people home on. The goal here is EDUCATION. Car education, driver skill education, etc.

I'm not advocating being lax on safety equipment and I agree with rules such as equal restraints and proper belts with racing seats. It is the instructor's responsibility to control the student and the situations. If you can't then you should not be instructing. It is that simple for me.

I think there should be an increase in classroom instruction for drivers to help improve skills.

BrianKeithSmith

JBH:

I see your points, but I agree with Geoffrey, I'm all for fewer rules, guidelines, etc. It all just gets in the way of me (personally) having as much fun as I can have at the track.

HOWEVER, while everything doesn't have to be written a rulebook, or handbook, policy manual, I do expect some common sense to be applied to out-of-the-ordinary situations, such as the one I encountered. When the situation arises - handle it using common sense and sound judgement.

But I don't really think additional criteria, rules, policies, procedures are really necessary. The fewer the better because under normal circumstances, they'll just get in the way, and take the fun out of it.

Just my .02.

Thanks for your thoughts JBH!

Brian

RedlineMan

Hey;

#1) No. Simply adding "safety equipment" does not make a car safer. What kind? What are the unitended, unforseen consequences? A noble thought, but too many variables to do this to the level you envision. What you learn when you do this all the time is that it is often better to do everything, or nothing at all. Too sticky a wicket to make it practical. Then you have to have rules for what is smart and what is not. You'll never get enough people that actually know the answers to get any consensus.

#2) It is indeed up to the instructor. Everyone is different, and gauging what you have in a student is done in the pre-drive interview.

#3) Run groups are generally built based on experience, but the schedule is made based on when students need instructors. As a guy who is fairly quick in a slow car, it would be a really nice idea, but the scheduling would be a nightmare. It's already tricky enough sometimes.

#4) A great idea, and usually taken care of quite well. Sometimes it doesn't work out perfectly, but in general things are pretty smooth.

#5) Another great idea. I think this should be taken care of by the regions. It would be nice if every region could take care of such things in a chalk talk session for newbies before the season began. Some already do. A lot don't.

SundayDriver

I think that one of the most dangerous aspects with newer drivers and high HP is what can happen in the high speed braking zones. A street based car, no matter what suspension, is still pretty soft and will do strange things at times. I can cite this based on lots of seat time in a 500+ HP 993TT.

Approaching T7 at Mid Ohio (pre new pavement)...
At 120-120 mph all is fine. You pick your braking point and everything goes as expected. As an instructor, you are probably comfortable with this as you have almost certainly approached at this speed.

Now crank up the speed. That TT would get close to 160 there. So now you come in at 155 and brake early to get the feel. Everything is fine for a couple of laps so you start to push a little deeper. Now you are at 160 and whenyou go for the brakes you discover the car is actually on top of a very small rise. You were not in the same place with the same braking force before. Now there is little bite, you are going faster and you are a lot deeper. No one told you there was a rise in that part of the track, because almost no one has ever experienced that spot at that speed for braking.

So you are still at 140mph, you are way too deep into the corner. WTF are you going to do? If you are an experienced driver, you have options. If you are a n00b, you don't have a clue what to do. If you are the instructor, but have never experienced this situation, you are wondering why your student decided to not use all the brakes.

I have seen huge differences in behaviour between 130 and 150 mph that you would simply not anticipate. I think it would be a good idea for clubs to limit new students to 100mph with the instructor slowly raising that, but not beyind what the instuctor has done in similar cars.

hacker-pschorr

This weekend is the PCA - Chicago DE at Road America. Friday is students / instructors only (not sure how other regions operate). Along with providing instructors to drive / ride along - Skip Barber Racing School is on hand. They position themselves around the track; take notes on how we are driving. After our session we are critiqued in the classroom based on what they saw. In-between runs they have exercises setup – brake test, slalom, skid pad etc… to teach better car control.

With the high speeds that are easily obtained in 4 places at Road America, the number of incidents is very low during these DE events.

JBH,
I agree with the overall concept of your initial post. Hard to implement some of those, like the HP regulation.
The Chicago Region does a good job with #5 already. Thursday night is tech inspection in downtown Elkhart Lake. 4PM – until sundown they go over each car one by one with the owner. Found out the hard way my torque wrench was broken. All of my wheels were loose!! (they check the torque on every car).

I’m starting to have 2nd thoughts about running with other groups where the tech inspection takes less than 2-3 minutes with a quick once over.

BrianKeithSmith

I like #5, I think the best thing would be to have some sort of track walk at lunch for all Green and Blue students. Do it during lunch. Go to a corner and say "how fast do you think you can go through this corner", and then tell him sort of what the real limit is for most average cars.

Its hard to fit that into the schedule, but most of the time there is an hour for lunch and you can accomplish ALOT in an hour with a track walk/tour.

Brian

Phokaioglaukos

I concur that too many rules are less useful than a few basic rules and a lot of common sense. In our region, the word of the instructor in the right seat supersedes all but the most basic rules (point-bys, black flags and the like). Speed limits should be set, if at all, to fit the circumstance. My car is fast, faster than I am, but I have no problem with an instructor asking me to slow sooner for a corner so I can be more precise on my line. The week before last I was surprised to see a lower-power BMW in my mirrors at the Glen, so I gave a point by and followed him for about three laps. I had to lift hugely on the straights, but I saw what he was doing and it was fun. I took his point by and went on my way, but it was a good experience. Speed can be controlled.

I doubt it's a matter of formal policy, but my region also seems to class participants by a combination of driver and car capabilities. I ran two events our novice group and then moved up where people are quicker. I've been there for a year now, and appreciate the instruction so am in no hurry to move to the next, uninstructed group.

Is it SCCA or PCA guidance that suggests 16 cars per mile of track? My region will put fewer cars than that on a tight course, such as Shenandoah.

My region also has a SuperTech session at the beginning of each season to discuss the program and safety practice and equipment. We have reminders at the track, and the group as a whole seems to look out for others, reminding people to use jack stands when jacking a car, for example, or diagnosing an odd noise.

Common sense, applied by all to all, is a powerful rule.

penguinking

my 2 cents - classroom instruction is bunk. i think that discussions on line and friction circles should be reserved for the instructor to instruct on. classroom should be for DE preparation, teching the car, safety prep, maintenence, etc. those issues i think are extremely lacking in DE. the only track newbies who come well prepared are the ones i see from the autox camp, who already know about proper car prep and tech.

if green/blue groups are going to be in classroom sessions 3-4 times over the weekend, they should be learning something DIFFERNT than what they're instructor is teaching. otherwise, its redundant.

yes, i understand that having the chalkboard is great for helping students understaand concepts, but i think emphasis shouldn't be placed on that aspect of DE. thats what they learn when they're in the car driving, not sitting in the classroom

Professor Helmüt Tester

Even more basic control, that will save the rubes and noobs some money:

No DOT race tires until you're certified as a 'Big Kid'.

VaSteve

Absolutely disagree.

For instance, someone buys a brand new 997 or some Turbo'd car. New to them. They don't know the first thing about DEing or if they will even like it. They show up in their nice rental helmet expecting to learn about the car and how to drive it. Now you're saying they should have to buy and install a roll bar and harnesses (and probably seats!) as well? That's a good way to kill the DE program for the new guys.

My region is pretty big and very active in DE. I own a low HP car, but if I happened to have a HHP car, I certainly would be put off by this kind of requirement. Hell, once upon a time, renting a helmet was a hassle

hacker-pschorr

Well, never going to happen up here! 4 miles in 30 minutes? I don't think so.

I would love to walk around Road America, analyze the track. In fact, every fall there is a run / walk marathon around the race track. I'm trying to round up everyone I know in the area who participates in DE's to use this as a track inspection day. I wonder if they will mind if I’m pulling a little red wagon with a cooler full of beer behind me?

bobt993

Run group HP levels? RTR basically does this. I mentioned in another thread that at the Glen, black group is good for a 2:10 to low 2:20's pace. Red drops below 2:10 with our chief instructor hitting around 2min in his "bat mobile 911" (I am sure guys running with us have seen Darth Vader in their mirrors). Track walks, yes. We do the Glen every year and get yelled at every year for someone walking to far away from the tour vehicle as we analyze corners. At the Nurburgring a really good exercise was done: First lead follow at speed (say 7/10s) through each section. 2nd lead follow at 3/10s and stop at key corners. Lead car stops at the exit, back car stops at the turn in. ( about 15cars long). If you ever wanted to show a newbie the "line" boy does that work for visualizing! Instead of doing "parade laps" at lunch. Paired groups of instructors should volunteer to do lead follow with say 5 cars sandwiched between them at a slow pace. ( Panoz does this with their racing program). Nice way to "teach" the line. Our national PCA cert Instructor told us black/red group drivers should be "unconscious and competent in ability" meaning their reactions are now innate to situations and consistent. This is what a green student at 150mph just does not have and why we get nervous about high horse power cars in DE. More seat time and track familiarity will aid this.

Z-man

That is one rule that I believe is prudent and helpful. Street tires are more forgiving - they 'complain' more at the limits and the break-away point is more linear than R's or slicks.

Street tires also help a student to learn slip angles and momentum driving, IMHO. They also can't throw the car into a corner harshly as they will over-drive the tires. I say until you are have progressed into the solo run groups, street tires should be the shoes worn on the cars.

I am not a big fan of basing the run groups on car hp. I've been held up by a few 996TT's in the past - that with my meager 201 hp 944S2. On the other side, I've held up the likes of Redlineman and Al P in their 'mostly stock' 944-types, as well as some 914 and 356 drivers. Besides, traffic management is a skill that should be learned, and by the time a driver reaches the intermediate & upper run groups, closing speeds is a concept that MUST not be taken lightly.

-Z.