MJR911

I took this subject from the spec miata forum and thought it would be fun here... basically we're going to build a car for stock class with the intent of winning at any cost. The car is done in total theory (don't whine about who does this and who doesn't) and assumes the strictest interpretation of the rule book (if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't!)

I'll start:

Stock Class 911:
- hire crafty welder to change length of control arms for more negative camber
- put chassis on frame bench and intentionally bend more more camber... claim to scruits the car must have been in an accident before racing
- 7:31 ring gear in 8:31 cars
- dummy control box with stock chip.. relocated box with hot chip
- on prepared class car, running big red brakes with stock master cylinder up top as dummy... tilton dual master unit hidden behind pedal box
- JE pistons, claim "carbon buildup" if CC'd in tech
- slotting rear spring plates, spray paint and fill in
- plumb fire extinguisher with NOS, place nozel in front of airbox


Later we'll disucss which of these we've actually seen around the track.

Have fun....

Matt Marks

I know nothing of 911's, but run the big blacks instead of the reds - less noticable.

Also - figure out how to plumb a MAF in there somewhere to connect to your MoTeC or whatever management system if the car doesn't already have a MAF as standard equipment. I suspect some of the changes people may suggest may differ depending on the age/class of car.

Are you talking about a base 996? or perhaps an earlier 964.

Larry Herman

Hey Mitch, how about an SC crank with 3.4 P/Cs & titanium con rods to bring it back down to a high revving 3.2?

We are talking about your old Carrera, right?

MJR911

Larry... Stroker motors are always a ringer! Better throw some better gearing in as well. Those old carreras were fun, I just saw your old beast at Performance Auto the other day. How about 3.0 CIS on top of that 3.2 stroker so now we can run at Euro SC weight in F class.

Matt... build whatever car you want. On a 996, turned upper perches seem like a good way to get that negative.

MJR911

Not our old carrera, but everyone of those mods sure wasn't pulled from thin air. A just heard a story about a guy running NOS at the ARRC in a miata a few years ago.

Larry, are you still sore b/c I know how to sell an F car right?

Larry Herman

Actually, I got over $8K for all the spares that he didn't want, so I did fairly well. Remember that your car was much cleaner than mine, and probably had a lot more expensive parts on it, but mine was faster.

macnewma

This isn't exactly what you were looking for, but is there a more detailed rule book than the general rules for PCA racing? I have been keeping my car either within the rules of PCA stock or close enough that converting it back would be easy. I don't race yet, but PCA stock might be an option down the road. I figure my car is worth more if it has a good class to race in.

I guess what I am getting at is what is legal on an engine rebuild? Can you sleeve a motor assuming you don't increase the displacement? What about oil cooling and engine cooling? Do you have to use things like a stock head gasket? Can you modify the oil pan to prevent cavitation and the fuel lines to prevent leaks?

Oh and if you wanted to check to see if the person is using the stock DME and not a hidden standalone, couldn't you just pull the relay for the DME and try to start the car? I guess if the person were smart they would pull the power for the standalone EMS from the same tap as the DME.

It does seem like there are so many easy ways to cheat. How many times have you guys seen someone get caught? It just seems like the risk of getting caught would be such a deterrent. Everyone knows everyone in the racing circles.

ZBlue996Kam

I think the control arm cheat is common.

The most negative camber I got with my old SC was -1.3 to -1.4. However, most competitors' cars looks like having at least -2.

And most of them were / are running 245 / 275 tire sizes when I can barely fit a 225 in the front.

My conclusion is that it takes lots of money and talent to run in the front pack in any racing series. I lack both.

Larry Herman

Nah, you just didn't know the tricks Kam. It was stunningly simple, we just took the strut bar and cranked it in so tightly that it pulled the front fenders together. Voila, more negative camber! If you had ever looked at my car, the hood gaps were practically non-existant.

ZBlue996Kam

That's it?
Damn, I got to tell John.

Now If I can get more camber for my 996!! I think I'm gonna try the GT3 strut mount this year to get more camber.

JCP911S

Never been scrutineered...(never been close enough to the front to make it worth anybody's while)

But here's my understanding FWIW

1) Anybody knows getting camber in a 911 is a very big benefit... so I'm sure the Scruts are looking closely at that.... if somebody has 2.5 degree in front, they're going to know something is up.... its not hard to measure the arms or check the strut-tower brace if they are motivated to do so.

2) Engine displacement and CR can be checked by pumping the engine... several people have been nabbed on this one.

3) in theory, gear ratios should be able to be checked by comparing wheel rotation to engine rotation... I'm sure they have done this, but have not personally heard of it.

No sure changing final drive is worth it as you can change tire diameter if you want....

As I understand it it is legal to blueprint and balance engines as long as specs stay within factory range.... this is probably good for 5 =/- hp, but not worth $12K to this poor boy.

Now....

I'm sure somebody has some exotic re-work of the CIS internals to get better fuel delivery that looks absolutely stock.... but again, just speculation...

If I were going to "cheat" without risking getting embarraslingly caught...(NOS injection ans such...)

Port the heads and use bigger valves and a custom built cam... you can't do too much here, as the CIS limits the benefit of too much cam, but if you end up with a motor that will pull hard to 8K... thats a win... I doubt whether anybody can catch this without a tear-down

Modify the body slightly to allow 2 degree of neg camber (grey range) and 245/275 tires.

Close ratio tranny... push 1st and 2nd a bit higher and 4th a bit lower.... take chances on getting caught.

OF all of these the close ratio tranny is, by far, the best "cheat" you can do on a G/F class 911

BTW... I have not done any of the above....

Eric in Chicago

Aggh! cant you guys pick a different class to discuss (F) The freaking 911's are already too damm quick
I would say tranny re gearing on any racer is the best cheat. Of course, short track gearing will hurt you on the long tracks. Some stock guys have a couple of trannys to swap in and out depending on the track (that is just crazy). Most cheats that give any real gains are pretty easy to spot (LWF, raised compression etc) Last year at Gingerman, they checked all the 951's with a scope to make sure the pistons were stock. It is just not worth cheating as the stigma will follow you around PCA forever.
Interesting topic, it will provide me even more excuses on why the 911's keep beating me!!!

38D

How about this. Swap out the CIS for motec and run the wires inside the CIS hoses! Probably could still see the injector blocks, but it certainly would make more power!

The only legal trick I know people do is to set the compression ratio at the factory spec. In 964s, the factory spec was something like 11.3:1, when in reality, most cars were delivered at more like 10.5:1. If you tweak the tolerences (like offest boring the wrist pin bushing), you can up it to the 11:3:1 and probably get near to 10% more power than the stock 247.

I'd bet the most common cheat is cam/high comp pistons. There was actually a car posted here that was advertised as a stock car with cams & JE pistons. When I pointed out that these weren't legal, they were suddenly removed from the ad!

Carrera51

Since my car is E "prepared" some of the above mentioned items are already legal mods for me (7:31 RP, DME chip , brakes, but no "dummy master cylinder," with the tilton hidden behind the pedals). I've got the brakes. I've been budget limited on doing the other stuff.

A few years ago at Summit Point, a G SC got knabbed for having higher compression domed pistons. I heard the driver said he didn't know what his mechanic put in the car. I heard he was asked to go home.

Personally, to cheat in an ameteur series seems foolish. As others have stated, it wouldn't be worth it to be labeled as a cheater within PCA or any race series because that scarlet letter would follow you around as long as you raced in that series.

Every race we all hear the chatter in the paddock about who is suspected of bending the rules. Reminds me of Sean Connery's line in the Untouchables,"everyone knows where the booze is..."

This is an interesting topic though.

TD in DC

Interesting thread. As part of the prep work for the NASA Comp School and 44 Cup, I have had to go through this exact analysis.

In the end, I reached the following conclusion. There are clear rule violations, and there are those "grey" areas (there are always grey areas when you have rules).

I do not intended to engage in any clear rule violations, period. Why? If I were to be successful and I knowingly cheated, I would always wonder whether I would have won if I had not cheated. It would take a little of the joy out of the "success." I would feel even worse if I cheated and ran middle or back of the pack, because then I couldn't tell myself as easily that everyone who beat me was merely cheating.

If I don't cheat and I am successful, I will be truly happy. If I don't cheat and I am at the middle or back of the pack, I can always tell myself that the others may be cheating!

For the same reasons, I will not even go into the grey area if the purpose of the "modification" would be to improve performance. With respect to safety or reliability (which are often the same), I would consider a grey area modification provided that I could not be accused of doing so in order to gain competitive advantage. So far, I have not decided to do any grey area modifications whatsoever.

Also, I couldn't cheat if I wanted to because I am the worlds worst liar, which I often regret. Life would be so much easier if I could lie, but I just suck at lying. I am the best person to invite to a poker game