Should racers pay for damage they cause during a race?
10-25-2005, 08:46 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by Bill L Seifert
This kind of discussion could only happen at a PCA race or some Historic organizations. I race mostly SCCA, and have been hit many times. I don't think I have ever hit anyone, except once, my first year in 1985, and that was from being in reverse instead of first, leaving the scales. I backed into a Spridget, and crunched his air dam. He threw a full can of Coke at me, I appologized profusely, but neve thought about offering to pay. Noone has ever offered to pay me, when they hit me, sometimes on purpose. But, that is the difference between SCCA and PCA.
I remember at Rensport II at Daytona last year, when some PCA'ers got hit by SCCA drivers, and there was fiberglass shards all over the Horseshoe. The PCA drivers were appalled at the lack of 13/13. I don't think anyone hit anybody on purpose, but the guys who race where there is the 13/13 got their eyes opened, when the SCCA guys didn't slam on the brakes when some PCA drivers didn't see them on the inside, and moved toward the apex, and got clobbered.
Getting back to the main idea of this thread, making someone pay when they do something stupid, would be impossible to enforce. To be real honest, I had never thought about until now. I never really liked the 13/13, but my car should looked better back then, when I raced PCA.
Bill Seifert
1987 944S Race Car
I remember at Rensport II at Daytona last year, when some PCA'ers got hit by SCCA drivers, and there was fiberglass shards all over the Horseshoe. The PCA drivers were appalled at the lack of 13/13. I don't think anyone hit anybody on purpose, but the guys who race where there is the 13/13 got their eyes opened, when the SCCA guys didn't slam on the brakes when some PCA drivers didn't see them on the inside, and moved toward the apex, and got clobbered.
Getting back to the main idea of this thread, making someone pay when they do something stupid, would be impossible to enforce. To be real honest, I had never thought about until now. I never really liked the 13/13, but my car should looked better back then, when I raced PCA.
Bill Seifert
1987 944S Race Car
10-25-2005, 09:20 PM
#18
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Guys - thanks for the perspective. I've already had to write the check for my repairs but was curious what the opinion was of people who have been racing a lot longer than I have.
Looking forward to Sebring...car will be back in good shape by then.
Cheers,
Rick
Looking forward to Sebring...car will be back in good shape by then.
Cheers,
Rick
10-25-2005, 09:52 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by Bull
EXACTLY Bill! When I raced SCCA many moons ago, this concept would never have been discussed. Not to say it shouldn't be now....but, the thought is a very big reason why I don't get back into racing via PCA. Not that I had a habit of hitting anyone, but it is a completely different concept of "racing". Hell, back in my SCCA days, I'm not certain how many of us could count to 13.........
After my best races, it always seems that 2 or 3 of us have to look at our cars to know if we had any contact. I was called into the penalty box after the '04 Run-Offs with another car. There had been 5 or 6 reports of contact between us. Not a single mark on either car - Not that is CLOSE racing. I just don't see how you get that level of racing in a 13/13 environment.
10-25-2005, 09:53 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by Rick
Guys - thanks for the perspective. I've already had to write the check for my repairs but was curious what the opinion was of people who have been racing a lot longer than I have.
Looking forward to Sebring...car will be back in good shape by then.
Cheers,
Rick
Looking forward to Sebring...car will be back in good shape by then.
Cheers,
Rick
10-25-2005, 10:15 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Capt. Carrera
Jack's got it right. You're responsible for your own car. There is no way I could even cover the cost of parts for some of the cars that show up at my local track. (Carrera GTs, a 917, multiple Ferraris)
Very cool.
BTW: What's a Ferraris?
After I read 917, I simply don't understand the importance of 'multiple Ferraris.' To quote Charile Sheen in "No man's Land" when his friend suggested they steal a 308GTS: "Na, I don't steal Italian trash." -Z-man.
10-25-2005, 10:19 PM
#23
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Rick,
If the guy offered to pay then he should. I am sure it is not legally binding but just the right thing to do since he was such an idiot to begin with. How many people have actually ran into others and had no clue they had even touched someone? Last words : Karma is a bitch!
If the guy offered to pay then he should. I am sure it is not legally binding but just the right thing to do since he was such an idiot to begin with. How many people have actually ran into others and had no clue they had even touched someone? Last words : Karma is a bitch!
10-26-2005, 02:47 AM
#24
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Guys
My stategy is to take the pain then name and shame the offender on our website.
This is an example http://www.almost.co.za/Zwartkops06August.htm of what I mean.
I quote: "In the early stages of the race into turn 4 I felt a bang as John Greve drove into the back of our car, instantly delivering a R2000 carbon fibre repair bill on my doorstep. It seems that recently he has been involved in a number of bumper bashings. If I recall correctly he was also involved in an incident at Wesbank during the last race there. Maybe, when he was a moving chicane, at Wesbank I should have been more forceful especially on the banking section. . . . Can somebody please give John Greve the telephone number of the "Rob Bygrave Racing School for Beginner Drivers." He needs some serious schooling!"
We post our race reports to about 200 subscribers. I think the embarrassment of being publically exposed, for me, sometimes eases the pain of the repair.
My stategy is to take the pain then name and shame the offender on our website.
This is an example http://www.almost.co.za/Zwartkops06August.htm of what I mean.
I quote: "In the early stages of the race into turn 4 I felt a bang as John Greve drove into the back of our car, instantly delivering a R2000 carbon fibre repair bill on my doorstep. It seems that recently he has been involved in a number of bumper bashings. If I recall correctly he was also involved in an incident at Wesbank during the last race there. Maybe, when he was a moving chicane, at Wesbank I should have been more forceful especially on the banking section. . . . Can somebody please give John Greve the telephone number of the "Rob Bygrave Racing School for Beginner Drivers." He needs some serious schooling!"
We post our race reports to about 200 subscribers. I think the embarrassment of being publically exposed, for me, sometimes eases the pain of the repair.
10-26-2005, 11:16 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
One other thing I had happen at Rennsport II, was some guy in a 2004 GT3 was in our group. I don't know how, because we were mostly 944's and 911 turbos. I never saw the turbos, they were so far ahead of us, but, anyway I was having a pretty good race with (I think) Chris Derecola (sp). That darn GT3 was fast as heck on the banking, but I would catch him in the infield, then he would blow me away till the bus stop, where he would slam on his brakes, and take it at about 60mph. I never could get past him. Chris got ahed of him, and that ended our dice. After the race, it came to mind that I should have bumped him going into the bus stop chicane, that would have probably made him get out of the way. I'm glad I didn't think of doing that during the race, because the impulse would have been great. I would have felt awful, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have done it. I can guarentee I would not have been able to afford to pay for any damage. Anyway, I can still say that I have never hit anyone in a race, of course, my lack of first place trophies shows that also.
Bill
Bill
10-26-2005, 11:37 AM
#26
Race Director
Originally Posted by JPhillips-998
One thought might be to fine drivers that are CLEARLY in the wrong. Send the $$ to a charity but make the drivers realize that there are ramifications for their idiocity.
1) Any fixed $$ will be unfair the budget racer as compared to well funded racer.
To some folks $1000 is big money. For other $1000 is drop in the bucket. A wealthy racer may just figure... I can afford to bang into people and write it off as charity.
Also the other issue with paying for damage is one the Jack suggests. One way to WIN.. is with money. Have car no one else dares damage since they can't pay and if you get some yahoo in a cheap 944 in your way... Run him off the road. 10k is it all it will take to get that heap out of your way. Nobody said racing would be cheap.
No really the way we have it now is best. While SCCA and PCA have different rules related to contact the general feeling is if you are crazy bone head driver that likes damage other cars you will be dealt with by the scantioning body and by the other drivers.
10-26-2005, 12:15 PM
#27
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Just a thought -
Pro racing series like Speed World Vision, NASCAR, F1...etc all have some sort of prize money that is attached to winning. Some pots are bigger, some are smaller.
In Club Racing, the winner gets to take home a $15.00 plastic trophy. Hardly worth banging up a car, or risking an injury for. The lack of prize money and the 13/13 rule should discourage folks in PCA club racing from banging against each other, though there will always be ligitimate accidents.
-Z.
Pro racing series like Speed World Vision, NASCAR, F1...etc all have some sort of prize money that is attached to winning. Some pots are bigger, some are smaller.
In Club Racing, the winner gets to take home a $15.00 plastic trophy. Hardly worth banging up a car, or risking an injury for. The lack of prize money and the 13/13 rule should discourage folks in PCA club racing from banging against each other, though there will always be ligitimate accidents.
-Z.
10-26-2005, 12:49 PM
#28
Race Director
Originally Posted by Z-man
In Club Racing, the winner gets to take home a $15.00 plastic trophy. Hardly worth banging up a car, or risking an injury for. The lack of prize money and the 13/13 rule should discourage folks in PCA club racing from banging against each other, though there will always be ligitimate accidents.
-Z.
-Z.
Then again I think the folks that actually want to hit other drivers are rare.
Most incidents are a result of either "over estimating" one skills resulting in a incident or simply close racing. Close racing need not end it contact, but get two folks race hard and close and all it takes is one (or both make) to small error even when both have the best intentions.
10-26-2005, 12:50 PM
#29
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
My experiences in SCCA have been quite different than yours as I have seen such offers made 5 or 6 times. Frankly, I can't imagine racing under a 13/13 rule.
.
.
Two different types of racing IMHO... like comparing limit poker to no limit poker... just a matter of what you like and are good at.
I have to factor body damage into my budget, and frankly, I can't afford it. 13/13 means rich guys and guys with ****ty beat up cars can't just go around punting people off the track.
As stated above, damage to your car comes out of your wallet... if some guy strokes a check... that's great, but don;t count on it.
If my brother-in-law owned a body shop, I'd probably jump to SCCA.
10-26-2005, 01:07 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by M758
Then again I think the folks that actually want to hit other drivers are rare.
Originally Posted by M758
Most incidents are a result of either "over estimating" one skills resulting in a incident or simply close racing. Close racing need not end it contact, but get two folks race hard and close and all it takes is one (or both make) to small error even when both have the best intentions.