Adam Richman

Rick, tough break on the damage. There are inherrent risks with putting a car on the track in the first place. Even as the entrant and not driving, you are taking, even assuming, risks that you know yourself to be ultimately responsilbe. They however do not extend past the sillhouette of your car (armco costs not-withstanding).

I am empathetic to your situation and hate that the guy ever offered to pay for it - that's probably the rough spot here. But he's not responsible for it unfortunately (and its not hard to imagine that after leaving the track that weekend this hadn't come to him or someone else hadn't pointed it out). I know that sounds terribly harsh but its a reality that you better save the pennies for the damage that is caused by others or the avoidance of others, not for fixing what you - through fault or not - cause. Chivalrous? Nah, not so much. Would I offer to litterally pay for damage I caused through fault of mine? I really cannot imagine giving it that much mind actually. Would I expect or ever accept the offer from someone else? Hell NO, a) accepting it means expectation (which you are experiencing now) and b) it means I better be preparred to return that to every and any one I may possibly hit .... and as others have pointed out, I cannot afford to buy a GT3 let alone race one, I sure as hell cannot afford a fender for someone else's.

What I have seen in regional racing is folks offering up used parts (fenders, door skins, etc ...). I think most guys discount the offers that extend beyond that as _I think_ they are made as statements of how bad the person feels but not the extent they wish to go. That's fine, just have a firm grip on it going in and all the better reason to thank but not accept gifts greater than the size/cost of a bread box. Anything else, as I said, it asking for either disappointment or putting a rather sizely X on your back for the day you don't see that guy/gal.

Z-man, you cannot equate what the purse pays out directly to how one drives. If so, you are suggesting that at the front of a World Challenge field you can punt your way around but in 17th place, you have to stop. That's not a realistic view point. Remember that in racing, most will teach you to push as far to the front as you can as it gets safer the more cars that are behind you (less folks to run out of talent in front of you). There is always a reason to push hard in racing and my preference would be to not have to leave the track surface to avoid tire-rub or something that vinyl can easily repair. I am personally a big opponent of 13/13 rules as I think they suggest a limited risk that is inaccurate whenever people are competing in race cars.

JCP, I really do not envy those in your SCCA region if that's the impression you were left with. And furthermore, its really unfortunate that is the impression you have (not saying its right or wrong, you know what you see). I have found SCCA Improved Touring in the SEDiv to have some very remarkable and clean drivers. I cannot speak to any other class as I don't race with them. I think by and large, folks are encouraged to exit the IT ranks when OSB. Good drivers and very fair and measured drivers notwithstanding, my car(s) have had different paint jobs three times (for various reasons but all mine). Every time I have come home with new paint, took the gas tank cover off and went vinyl shopping for paint matches. I don't do this out of cynicism, I do so out of expectation. I have ZERO problem w/ tire marks cutting to the steel or an unexpected ding/dent/prang - that just comes w/ the territory. If someone else knocks the toe out so that its harder to drive, I am pissed. That's about it.

78SC

I have raced both SCCA and PCA and did not notice much differance between the level of racing. The guys with nice GT1 cars don't want to tear them up anymore than guys in PCA do. IMHO the PCA racers seem to run just as close as SCCA with the number of contact incidents being about the same.

Geo

No kidding. Throw in $75 to win and people leave their brains at home. When I raced karts we had a money race every year (I wouldn't touch it with a 3 meter electric cattle prod) that paid $75 to win. I watched people pay $200+ dollars for new tires and stuff just to try to get that $75. We also sent as many people away injured that weekend as we did the rest of the 18 week season.

No really. They just drive in circles.

analogmike

I raced 5 SCCA national races and the runoffs this year, and if I had held my line as I do in a PCA race I would have been knocked off the track at nearly every race. I had contact in 3 of these races even though I left plenty of room and assumed they would run me off the road. Amy Ruman who runs Trans Am and finished well in GT1 did the worst pass I have ever seen in qualifying at the runoffs (we got mixed with GT1 for 2 of the sessions). Coming into the keyhole much faster than me, she got even with my front bumper on my right at top speed and turned left right into me, slowing down much more than I need to for that turn and I nearly rammed her. Thank god for ABS and better brakes than her Vette. What a bonehead.

My 1st incident was in the rain at the Glen, spun on the front straight and smashed a friend's similar '73 RS clone. I offered to buy him a new ducktail but he declined.

Mitch Bender (Pace trailers) tried to put his GT3 cup into my passengers' seat at the Atlanta GT3 cup race and was fairly successful. At the corner station waiting for the wreckers he was not all that apologetic. 5 figure damage. if he offered me a new door I would have accepted it.

have fun!

RedlineMan

Hmmm...

I stand by my earlier statement, but add this. Some have mentioned the shame and peer group pressure that can be brought to bear. I'd also add that - after due investigation - I personally will offer to rip the F$#&ing guys head off and spit down his throat if he ever hits me again.

Of course, as with offering to pay for damages, you should not do this if you do not intend to back it up. I don't have the habit of talking out my ****.

Professor Helmüt Tester

I have raced with Amy (right next to, right in front of, right behind, etc.) for a whole bunch of years, and the incident you describe is very uncharacteristic of her driving. She ain't like that.

Be careful. That would earn your a protest, a trip before the SOM's (Stewards Court), and possibly probation or license suspension, if you happened to be talking to me.

JCP911S

AR... don't want to take this too far off thread, but I am not disrespecting SCCA, or in any way implying that drivers are not good or clean. My point is not whether one is "better" than the other, but that they are different.

For example, if I am side by side with a guy I don't kinow, and I have the inside and am trying to decide whether to commit to the pass,...

Its PCA with 13/13. I can be more confident that he won't chop me and risk a collision.... at the same time if I see him start an aggressive move I am more likely to back out and look for another opportuninty.

Its SCCA and the guy has a Mustang that is sponsored by "Quick Paint Body Shop" Personally I would be less confident that he won't do something aggressive to hold position.... at the same time I also have a Mustang and a bunch of spare fenders in my garage... if I see him pinch in, I'm more likely to say "go ahead... try it, *******", and take the pass..

All I'm saying is it changes the odds of the pass and my decision... it does not mean the guy in the Mustang is an idiot or would bang into my car... just that I have to give that outcome a different weight.... that's all

Professor Helmüt Tester

One of the things I teach in a race school classroom session politely called 'Crisis Management' is that you should never give an unknown car any space to get a running start at 'dooring' you.

Huh ?

Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.

Why ?

If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.

I take the radius advantage away from them. If they turn-in from 6" away, it's just a soft hit, and maybe you'll be wiping tire marks off a wheel or fender. If they turn-in 15-20' outside of you, they get a running start and you're gonna get door-slammed.

If you give somebody a 2-3 car-width hole at corner entry, it's partly your own damn fault if they hit you.

Geo

Not to mention that is the classic pass - prevent turn-in. I have taken people DEEP who have tried to hang with me on the outside just to insure they did not turn in on me (doing as Herr Professor has said - get very close along side them).

Dirt Track Racer

This is why the PCA racing really bugs me. Gentlemen this, rich guys that. Its all rubbish.

You need to do it on the dirt like I do. You're lucky if you can put your car on the trailer after a night of rubbin'.

Its also why I enjoy SCCA racing. Some asshat wrecks a bunch of guys it gets taken care of in the paddock. Said asshat learns to drove better pretty quickly.

Flat Top

Well said! Professor Helmüt Tester for PRESIDENT !

Larry Herman

Brilliant, effing brilliant. That's what racecraft is, crafty aggression. Not the stupid, bullsh*t dive bomb them from 20 feet behind type of aggression that takes you both out. Part of racing too is knowing something about your competition. The last race that I was in (in a cup car) another competitor with a little more grunt took just such a dive inside of me at turn 1. I could feel it coming, and checked up just a fraction earlier, he went sliding right by me and off the track, while I turned in normally. Unfortunately the bozo kicked out a large rock just as he went off, and it bounced directly under my car, cracking a radiator line, and my race was over .

JCP911S

What PCA class did you race in before you quit?

Adam Richman

JCP, not knowing what part of the country you live in, I didn't want to get defensive of "my" SCCA so to speak as I can really only comment of SEDiv IT (and the National cars that sometimes run Regionals and a few MARRS guys we see at VIR) and maybe the more encompassing ARRC pertaining to ONLY ITA/IT7. If you went and saw (or worse yet, raced and saw) something that is more bang-em-up than I am used to, I just felt that is unfortunate for you and the guys in your region. Simple as that - I didn't think it was disrespectful as much as disappointing that you don't feel you have the option to run with the SCCA. Options are good man!

Your example is a bit funny _from my perspective_ as I know a few guys that are ahem _sponsored_ by Body Shops. That ahem _sponsorship_ was that the shops painted/repaired damage at cost and now said drivers run their signage on the car. Its been an arrangement that comes from guys that can't afford to repair their cars past a certain point and are going to be very reluctant to put their car into anything.

We probably do see things differently in the sanction's differences. I meant my jab above my fears of a 13/13 rule - I think it makes folks _feel_ they are safer than they really are out there (your confidence in the other guy's not willing to chop down on you may be the same type of false-confidence).

If I understand your example of the guy above, I tend to not be a big fan of the "pinch" or leaking across the track as some means of intimidation. Guys that I have raced w/ in IT seem to get that they just give up too much on exit to do that. Now if I raced in a 13/13 rule environment, maybe it is the equivalent of taking a GT40 to the track, its perhaps using the threat of the rule to prevent you from trying a pass (I'd kinda hope that if done enough, it got the driver a 13/13 anyway but that's a whole other can-o-worms).

If you were more referring to a guy's willingness to turn into your car as a means of "don't try pass me again" - it's something that (down here) will get you a quick trip to the tower to explain your actions.

Certainly not trying to start a sanctioning bitch-fest. I think having as many as possible open to you is the best thing and I am sure PCA is just as fun and competitive as the next. Maybe one day I will get a chance to see that close-up-like.

38D

That seems completely unecessary to me. 95% of the people that I have raced with are aware and courteous. I sure as heck don't try to squeeze in some absurdly tight pass just so they "get the message"(JC in NY may disagree ). I also always give people room once they have me, as if they make a mistake, I'd like to have some correction room. And when I am done with a race, I don't even want there to be someone's tire marks on the side of my car. My car is also more important to me than some stupid place in a race that doesn't even matter.