Should racers pay for damage they cause during a race?
#31
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Rick, tough break on the damage. There are inherrent risks with putting a car on the track in the first place. Even as the entrant and not driving, you are taking, even assuming, risks that you know yourself to be ultimately responsilbe. They however do not extend past the sillhouette of your car (armco costs not-withstanding).
I am empathetic to your situation and hate that the guy ever offered to pay for it - that's probably the rough spot here. But he's not responsible for it unfortunately (and its not hard to imagine that after leaving the track that weekend this hadn't come to him or someone else hadn't pointed it out). I know that sounds terribly harsh but its a reality that you better save the pennies for the damage that is caused by others or the avoidance of others, not for fixing what you - through fault or not - cause. Chivalrous? Nah, not so much. Would I offer to litterally pay for damage I caused through fault of mine? I really cannot imagine giving it that much mind actually. Would I expect or ever accept the offer from someone else? Hell NO, a) accepting it means expectation (which you are experiencing now) and b) it means I better be preparred to return that to every and any one I may possibly hit .... and as others have pointed out, I cannot afford to buy a GT3 let alone race one, I sure as hell cannot afford a fender for someone else's.
What I have seen in regional racing is folks offering up used parts (fenders, door skins, etc ...). I think most guys discount the offers that extend beyond that as _I think_ they are made as statements of how bad the person feels but not the extent they wish to go. That's fine, just have a firm grip on it going in and all the better reason to thank but not accept gifts greater than the size/cost of a bread box. Anything else, as I said, it asking for either disappointment or putting a rather sizely X on your back for the day you don't see that guy/gal.
Z-man, you cannot equate what the purse pays out directly to how one drives. If so, you are suggesting that at the front of a World Challenge field you can punt your way around but in 17th place, you have to stop. That's not a realistic view point. Remember that in racing, most will teach you to push as far to the front as you can as it gets safer the more cars that are behind you (less folks to run out of talent in front of you). There is always a reason to push hard in racing and my preference would be to not have to leave the track surface to avoid tire-rub or something that vinyl can easily repair. I am personally a big opponent of 13/13 rules as I think they suggest a limited risk that is inaccurate whenever people are competing in race cars.
JCP, I really do not envy those in your SCCA region if that's the impression you were left with. And furthermore, its really unfortunate that is the impression you have (not saying its right or wrong, you know what you see). I have found SCCA Improved Touring in the SEDiv to have some very remarkable and clean drivers. I cannot speak to any other class as I don't race with them. I think by and large, folks are encouraged to exit the IT ranks when OSB. Good drivers and very fair and measured drivers notwithstanding, my car(s) have had different paint jobs three times (for various reasons but all mine). Every time I have come home with new paint, took the gas tank cover off and went vinyl shopping for paint matches. I don't do this out of cynicism, I do so out of expectation. I have ZERO problem w/ tire marks cutting to the steel or an unexpected ding/dent/prang - that just comes w/ the territory. If someone else knocks the toe out so that its harder to drive, I am pissed. That's about it.
I am empathetic to your situation and hate that the guy ever offered to pay for it - that's probably the rough spot here. But he's not responsible for it unfortunately (and its not hard to imagine that after leaving the track that weekend this hadn't come to him or someone else hadn't pointed it out). I know that sounds terribly harsh but its a reality that you better save the pennies for the damage that is caused by others or the avoidance of others, not for fixing what you - through fault or not - cause. Chivalrous? Nah, not so much. Would I offer to litterally pay for damage I caused through fault of mine? I really cannot imagine giving it that much mind actually. Would I expect or ever accept the offer from someone else? Hell NO, a) accepting it means expectation (which you are experiencing now) and b) it means I better be preparred to return that to every and any one I may possibly hit .... and as others have pointed out, I cannot afford to buy a GT3 let alone race one, I sure as hell cannot afford a fender for someone else's.
What I have seen in regional racing is folks offering up used parts (fenders, door skins, etc ...). I think most guys discount the offers that extend beyond that as _I think_ they are made as statements of how bad the person feels but not the extent they wish to go. That's fine, just have a firm grip on it going in and all the better reason to thank but not accept gifts greater than the size/cost of a bread box. Anything else, as I said, it asking for either disappointment or putting a rather sizely X on your back for the day you don't see that guy/gal.
Z-man, you cannot equate what the purse pays out directly to how one drives. If so, you are suggesting that at the front of a World Challenge field you can punt your way around but in 17th place, you have to stop. That's not a realistic view point. Remember that in racing, most will teach you to push as far to the front as you can as it gets safer the more cars that are behind you (less folks to run out of talent in front of you). There is always a reason to push hard in racing and my preference would be to not have to leave the track surface to avoid tire-rub or something that vinyl can easily repair. I am personally a big opponent of 13/13 rules as I think they suggest a limited risk that is inaccurate whenever people are competing in race cars.
JCP, I really do not envy those in your SCCA region if that's the impression you were left with. And furthermore, its really unfortunate that is the impression you have (not saying its right or wrong, you know what you see). I have found SCCA Improved Touring in the SEDiv to have some very remarkable and clean drivers. I cannot speak to any other class as I don't race with them. I think by and large, folks are encouraged to exit the IT ranks when OSB. Good drivers and very fair and measured drivers notwithstanding, my car(s) have had different paint jobs three times (for various reasons but all mine). Every time I have come home with new paint, took the gas tank cover off and went vinyl shopping for paint matches. I don't do this out of cynicism, I do so out of expectation. I have ZERO problem w/ tire marks cutting to the steel or an unexpected ding/dent/prang - that just comes w/ the territory. If someone else knocks the toe out so that its harder to drive, I am pissed. That's about it.
#32
Instructor
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I have raced both SCCA and PCA and did not notice much differance between the level of racing. The guys with nice GT1 cars don't want to tear them up anymore than guys in PCA do. IMHO the PCA racers seem to run just as close as SCCA with the number of contact incidents being about the same.
#33
Race Director
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Originally Posted by M758
It is amazing what people do for a $15 dollar trophy and 5 min of "fame".
Originally Posted by M758
Then again I think the folks that actually want to hit other drivers are rare.
#34
Rennlist Member
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Originally Posted by 78SC
I have raced both SCCA and PCA and did not notice much differance between the level of racing. The guys with nice GT1 cars don't want to tear them up anymore than guys in PCA do. IMHO the PCA racers seem to run just as close as SCCA with the number of contact incidents being about the same.
My 1st incident was in the rain at the Glen, spun on the front straight and smashed a friend's similar '73 RS clone. I offered to buy him a new ducktail but he declined.
Mitch Bender (Pace trailers) tried to put his GT3 cup into my passengers' seat at the Atlanta GT3 cup race and was fairly successful. At the corner station waiting for the wreckers he was not all that apologetic. 5 figure damage. if he offered me a new door I would have accepted it.
have fun!
#35
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Hmmm...
I stand by my earlier statement, but add this. Some have mentioned the shame and peer group pressure that can be brought to bear. I'd also add that - after due investigation - I personally will offer to rip the F$#&ing guys head off and spit down his throat if he ever hits me again.
Of course, as with offering to pay for damages, you should not do this if you do not intend to back it up. I don't have the habit of talking out my ****.
I stand by my earlier statement, but add this. Some have mentioned the shame and peer group pressure that can be brought to bear. I'd also add that - after due investigation - I personally will offer to rip the F$#&ing guys head off and spit down his throat if he ever hits me again.
Of course, as with offering to pay for damages, you should not do this if you do not intend to back it up. I don't have the habit of talking out my ****.
#36
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by analogmike
Amy Ruman who runs Trans Am and finished well in GT1 did the worst pass I have ever seen in qualifying at the runoffs (we got mixed with GT1 for 2 of the sessions).
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
I'd also add that - after due investigation - I personally will offer to rip the F$#&ing guys head off and spit down his throat if he ever hits me again.
#37
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Originally Posted by Adam Richman
JCP, I really do not envy those in your SCCA region if that's the impression you were left with. And furthermore, its really unfortunate that is the impression you have (not saying its right or wrong, you know what you see). I have found SCCA Improved Touring in the SEDiv to have some very remarkable and clean drivers..
AR... don't want to take this too far off thread, but I am not disrespecting SCCA, or in any way implying that drivers are not good or clean. My point is not whether one is "better" than the other, but that they are different.
For example, if I am side by side with a guy I don't kinow, and I have the inside and am trying to decide whether to commit to the pass,...
Its PCA with 13/13. I can be more confident that he won't chop me and risk a collision.... at the same time if I see him start an aggressive move I am more likely to back out and look for another opportuninty.
Its SCCA and the guy has a Mustang that is sponsored by "Quick Paint Body Shop" Personally I would be less confident that he won't do something aggressive to hold position.... at the same time I also have a Mustang and a bunch of spare fenders in my garage... if I see him pinch in, I'm more likely to say "go ahead... try it, *******", and take the pass..
All I'm saying is it changes the odds of the pass and my decision... it does not mean the guy in the Mustang is an idiot or would bang into my car... just that I have to give that outcome a different weight.... that's all
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#38
Burning Brakes
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One of the things I teach in a race school classroom session politely called 'Crisis Management' is that you should never give an unknown car any space to get a running start at 'dooring' you.
Huh ?
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
I take the radius advantage away from them. If they turn-in from 6" away, it's just a soft hit, and maybe you'll be wiping tire marks off a wheel or fender. If they turn-in 15-20' outside of you, they get a running start and you're gonna get door-slammed.
If you give somebody a 2-3 car-width hole at corner entry, it's partly your own damn fault if they hit you.
Huh ?
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
I take the radius advantage away from them. If they turn-in from 6" away, it's just a soft hit, and maybe you'll be wiping tire marks off a wheel or fender. If they turn-in 15-20' outside of you, they get a running start and you're gonna get door-slammed.
If you give somebody a 2-3 car-width hole at corner entry, it's partly your own damn fault if they hit you.
Last edited by Professor Helmüt Tester; 10-26-2005 at 07:32 PM.
#39
Race Director
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
One of the things I teach in a race school classroom session politely called 'Crisis Management' is that you should never give an unknown car any space to get a running start at 'dooring' you.
Huh ?
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there, and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
I take the radius advantage away from them. If they turn-in from 6" away, it's just a soft hit, and maybe you'll be wiping tire marks off a wheel or fender. If they turn-in 15-20' outside of you, they get a running start and you're gonna get door-slammed.
If you give somebody a 2-3 car-width hole at corner entry, it's partly your damn fault if they hit you.
Huh ?
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there, and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
I take the radius advantage away from them. If they turn-in from 6" away, it's just a soft hit, and maybe you'll be wiping tire marks off a wheel or fender. If they turn-in 15-20' outside of you, they get a running start and you're gonna get door-slammed.
If you give somebody a 2-3 car-width hole at corner entry, it's partly your damn fault if they hit you.
Not to mention that is the classic pass - prevent turn-in. I have taken people DEEP who have tried to hang with me on the outside just to insure they did not turn in on me (doing as Herr Professor has said - get very close along side them).
#40
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This is why the PCA racing really bugs me. Gentlemen this, rich guys that. Its all rubbish.
You need to do it on the dirt like I do. You're lucky if you can put your car on the trailer after a night of rubbin'.
Its also why I enjoy SCCA racing. Some asshat wrecks a bunch of guys it gets taken care of in the paddock. Said asshat learns to drove better pretty quickly.
You need to do it on the dirt like I do. You're lucky if you can put your car on the trailer after a night of rubbin'.
Its also why I enjoy SCCA racing. Some asshat wrecks a bunch of guys it gets taken care of in the paddock. Said asshat learns to drove better pretty quickly.
#42
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
Why ?
If you can reach out and whack their passenger side door, they probably will get the message that you're there and will take no **** from them. Give them a car width or two and their brain might not add up the vectors to conclude that there might be a collision at the apex if they make their normal turn-in.
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Larry Herman
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Past Flames:
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#43
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Originally Posted by Dirt Track Racer
This is why the PCA racing really bugs me. Gentlemen this, rich guys that. Its all rubbish.
You need to do it on the dirt like I do. You're lucky if you can put your car on the trailer after a night of rubbin'.
Its also why I enjoy SCCA racing. Some asshat wrecks a bunch of guys it gets taken care of in the paddock. Said asshat learns to drove better pretty quickly.
You need to do it on the dirt like I do. You're lucky if you can put your car on the trailer after a night of rubbin'.
Its also why I enjoy SCCA racing. Some asshat wrecks a bunch of guys it gets taken care of in the paddock. Said asshat learns to drove better pretty quickly.
What PCA class did you race in before you quit?
#44
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Originally Posted by JCP911S
AR... don't want to take this too far off thread, but I am not disrespecting SCCA, or in any way implying that drivers are not good or clean. My point is not whether one is "better" than the other, but that they are different.
For example, if I am side by side with a guy I don't kinow, and I have the inside and am trying to decide whether to commit to the pass,...
Its PCA with 13/13. I can be more confident that he won't chop me and risk a collision.... at the same time if I see him start an aggressive move I am more likely to back out and look for another opportuninty.
Its SCCA and the guy has a Mustang that is sponsored by "Quick Paint Body Shop" Personally I would be less confident that he won't do something aggressive to hold position.... at the same time I also have a Mustang and a bunch of spare fenders in my garage... if I see him pinch in, I'm more likely to say "go ahead... try it, *******", and take the pass..
All I'm saying is it changes the odds of the pass and my decision... it does not mean the guy in the Mustang is an idiot or would bang into my car... just that I have to give that outcome a different weight.... that's all![bigbye](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
For example, if I am side by side with a guy I don't kinow, and I have the inside and am trying to decide whether to commit to the pass,...
Its PCA with 13/13. I can be more confident that he won't chop me and risk a collision.... at the same time if I see him start an aggressive move I am more likely to back out and look for another opportuninty.
Its SCCA and the guy has a Mustang that is sponsored by "Quick Paint Body Shop" Personally I would be less confident that he won't do something aggressive to hold position.... at the same time I also have a Mustang and a bunch of spare fenders in my garage... if I see him pinch in, I'm more likely to say "go ahead... try it, *******", and take the pass..
All I'm saying is it changes the odds of the pass and my decision... it does not mean the guy in the Mustang is an idiot or would bang into my car... just that I have to give that outcome a different weight.... that's all
![bigbye](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
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Your example is a bit funny _from my perspective_ as I know a few guys that are ahem _sponsored_ by Body Shops. That ahem _sponsorship_ was that the shops painted/repaired damage at cost and now said drivers run their signage on the car. Its been an arrangement that comes from guys that can't afford to repair their cars past a certain point and are going to be very reluctant to put their car into anything.
We probably do see things differently in the sanction's differences. I meant my jab above my fears of a 13/13 rule - I think it makes folks _feel_ they are safer than they really are out there (your confidence in the other guy's not willing to chop down on you may be the same type of false-confidence).
If I understand your example of the guy above, I tend to not be a big fan of the "pinch" or leaking across the track as some means of intimidation. Guys that I have raced w/ in IT seem to get that they just give up too much on exit to do that. Now if I raced in a 13/13 rule environment, maybe it is the equivalent of taking a GT40 to the track, its perhaps using the threat of the rule to prevent you from trying a pass (I'd kinda hope that if done enough, it got the driver a 13/13 anyway but that's a whole other can-o-worms).
If you were more referring to a guy's willingness to turn into your car as a means of "don't try pass me again" - it's something that (down here) will get you a quick trip to the tower to explain your actions.
Certainly not trying to start a sanctioning bitch-fest. I think having as many as possible open to you is the best thing and I am sure PCA is just as fun and competitive as the next. Maybe one day I will get a chance to see that close-up-like.
#45
Nordschleife Master
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Passing somebody you don't know, on the way into a corner ? Skin'em. Take their mirrors off. Slide it inside, right next to their door handles. INCHES away. Pin'em to the outside.
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)