Sanjeevan

Well, I've seen several nurburgring laps where they are using blinkers as a signal to approve a pass, and I spoke to a BMW Canada DE organizer and he said they do the same. To me it appears to be a safer alternative. One the usage of nets to keep the hands from harm, and the other be able to always have two hands on the wheel except for shifting.

hacker-pschorr

Harder for corner workers to see if you actually did signal?

DanS911

I know I have knocked my wipers or turnsignals on accidently more than once, but not usually on a straight ;-)

tlark

Good question.

I don't think they discourage the use of blinkers, however the hand signal is the method they choose and teach. One reason being if your overtaken by 2 cars. The second in the line cannot pass until that driver gets a hand signal as well and it would take to long if waiting for a blinker b/c the 2nd car does have to be recognized and some confusion could exist. Also, no passing excepts for straights so two hands on the wheel isn't a big deal. I had a driver this past weekend give me a blinker just after apex and then a just as we entered the straight, that really showed me the driver was on his toes. On the other hand another driver didn't pay enough attention to his mirrors and wasn't giving hand signals. For some drivers I think asking them to do both (hand/blinker) is too much.

Sanjeevan

Tom I had thought about the second car confusion and decided that leaving the blinkers after the passing car's fron end passes yours would signal to the second car to pass as well. Also, even with hand signals there are times it's unclear whether the driver had approved the second pass, my instructor had mentioned to me to stick out one finger with the stretched hand and two fingers for the second car and so forth....the blinkers to signal a pass to come sounds good, and I've just read somewhere that I could acknowledge with my right hand that I had seen the car and will let him by in the next passing zone. To me leaving the nets out and the window down sounds like a risk we should try to avoid.

Palting

Been thinking a lot about this blinker thing since last year when I was given a blinker signal and didn't know what to make of it. Obviously, there are advantages and disadvantages. Overall, though, I'd have to agree that the hand signal is the better way to go for several reasons.

1. It's a definite signal. There is NO mistaking it. A blinker, on the other hand, could easily have been accidently set off by an excited or panicked novice, just the kind of driver you DON'T want to pass at that moment.

2. Same thing with multiple cars passing. Hand/arm goes out and in and out for EACH car. There is no mistaking THAT signal. Blinkers can be confusing. Did he just forget to turn off the blinker or does he actualy want me to pass too?

3.True, it is more difficult to give the signal, but it also means that your car and you must be settled before you can give the signal. If you or the car is/are unsettled, you can still easily give the blinker signal because you don't want to be a bad guy and hold the other guy up, and this can give rise to a potentially unsafe situation. Hand signals force you to NOT give the signal until you're settled enough to do so.

4. Can't use the net, true. But the safety issues above pertain more to the novice and intermediate people, where the hand signal can help avoid the accidents that make the net a neccessity. Crazy people in the Black or Red are allowed to pass in the corners with or without signals in some regions. Not that I like that idea, but I guess they can use the net there. I think all run groups should give a definite, unmistakable signal.

Nordschleife

I think many of these hand signal benefits are more theoretical than practical.

In my experience blinkers work fine - with one proviso -

in Europe drivers usually indicate which side they are moving to, in the US they tend to indicate
which side they want you to pass. It is not good to confuse the two, so clarify this at the first
Drivers' Meeting.

As a driver, you are watching the car in front, it is almost always quite obvious when the turn indicator/windscreen wiper have been activated inadvertently, you are paying attention , aren't you?

What is this fixation with Window Nets? Open cars don't have nets (road circuits, OK), closed cars should use windows, its safer that way, especially with carbon fibre fragements floating around. You don't see a lot of nets at Le Mans or in the DTM, or FIA GT championship, or the Supercup or the WTCC, or the WRC for that matter.

Waving hands and fingers around when you are busy is not always that feasible. Anyway some people are a bit challenged, remember there are 10 kinds of people in the world., those that can count binary (on their fingers) and those who can't.

R+C

RedlineMan

Hey All;

On some occasions, it is nice to be able to use the directionals. Coming out of 5A/B at Mosport, and taking a hand off the wheel for 5C can be a bit dodgy sometimes. Flicking a blinker can aid composure here.

Still, hand signals are probably better in most circumstances. If the signal is proper, i.e. clear and emphatic, I can't imagine,... say... missing a signal in the glare of the sun.

Being the guy in Red with 147hp, I have a lot of practice at getting people by me! I most definitely use two fingers when trying to get two fleischhunds past me with minimum encumbrence. And that's what it is about. Minimum encumbrence.

JackOlsen

I think the strongest argument against doing this is that the indicator means one thing in street use (I'm moving in that direction), and would have to mean practically the opposite in track use (I'm holding my line, you go in that direction to overtake me). On the Nurburgring, which is essentially an enthusiast's toll road, it might make sense to move over to let someone pass. In DE's it usually doesn't.

If you were behind a car and you were looking to overtake him, and he was near a left-side exit to the pits, and his signal came on, would that mean he is letting you pass, or he's going to move in that direction to exit? A driver's meeting might clear this up, but it's still going to be more ambiguous than hand signals, where there's a directional point for passing, and a hand straight up for intent to exit.

Many cars with nets are track cars, and won't have turn signals wired in at all.

(The horn is also a poor tool to use on a track.)

Benton

DE's and many racing bodies require the windows to be open, I guess to aid in a safe and quick exit during a fire (and other reasons?). An open-cockpit car can restrain the driver in a side impact, whereas in a sports car the driver is unrestrained. A window net keeps the driver from popping out of the window and bouncing around in the car, restraining the body to help prevent injury.

TRWright

I've done DE's where we use blinkers, and I have been to DE's where they use hand signals. From what I hear, in NJ they HAVE to use hand signals, because the driver's don't know where the blinkers are.

DJF1

The fixation is exactly what Red described. After Ben's fatal accident which for me it was a sobering reminder about DE safety, personally when I go to my next DE I will ask for my safety to have my window net up and be allowed to use turn signals. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, but in case of a mishap I want to be sure that at least I did whatever I could to protect myself.
BTW at my Sebring accident the net proved its worth by keeping various bits and pieces, including my mirror, that started flying around outside the cockpit.

JackOlsen

At DE's, you have your windows down in order to enable exit from the car in a fire, rollover, or impact that damages the doors. It's primarily so that you can be extracted by safety workers, but it makes getting out easier for the driver in those circumstances, too.

Window nets are mostly there to keep your arms from leaving the car during a rollover. Most sanctioning bodies also allow arm restraints for this. And of course with open cars, arm restraints are the only option. They're not used in some professional series for a variety of reasons, but none of those reasons is that nets or arm restraints are unsafe or unnecessary.

Hans- and Isaac-type neck restraints were not typically used (or required) in many pro racing series until recently -- even after they were becoming common at Club Racing events and in DE's. I don't think anyone would maintain that club racers were 'fixated' on neck restraints. They're just a good idea.

Nordschleife

OK, a lot of 'aren't window nets wonderful'. Everything you are talking about are what windows are for - and they do a better job, and don't destroy the aerodynamics. Plastic windows do not keep track side workers out when they need to get in.

And as far as Ben's accident is concerned, how, exactly, would a window net, as opposed to a closed window made a difference?
HANS devices were not required in all FIA race classes until the bugs had been worked out in F1 and by the original inventors. A cynic might suggest that club racers and DE attendees were early adopters because so many of them are gear heads, a bit like the guy on the GT3 forum who has done 200 miles in his car and wants to but strut tower braces in.

R+C

Benton

I guess I would say two things to that.

1) We can't really do anything about it; windows are required to be open, so I'd like to have a net there to stop my body from going out and debris from coming in.

2) Not all DE'ers or even people with cars like mine (928) don't have the resources or ability to get lexan non-roll up windows for a car. I don't know about you, but I don't trust a glass window to restrain my flying helmet in a large side impact.