DJF1

Very well said!! Speed and the effects of it does not distinguish between Race or DE.
I guess to each his own really and Palting said that if all the safety equipment is mandatory 80% of the drivers will not do DE's which is right too. What is the solution? Well for me there are 2 things that can make things safer for all of us at DE's:

1. Track safety. I mean the track itself. Racing in a Roval presents by definition much more of a danger than a normal track. The wall is there ever so prevalent and for me I never intend to run in a track like the Texas Motor Speedway or the California Speedway when they use oval turns. A rush yes, but what what potential cost? I have only run TWS but there they only use a straight not a turn which is better. Furthermore it would be a good oportunity to examine other tracks that do not have a lot of run off areas. Should we run there? For example if you run at Putnam you really only need to be very carefull in a couple of turns. The rest have so much run off room that chances are you are just going to have a nice offroad excursion only instead of a trip in the ambulance. I think we should support such tracks and maybe we should demand from our clubs to pressure the tracks which now make good money off of us to improve their runn offs and the quality of the track itself.

2. Mandate in the cars who run in the advanced groups to have at least some safety equipment mandatory, like a roll bar and proper seats with restraining. Lets face it if you run on the advanced group chances are you are instructing or racing as well so you also probably push a little bit the envelope... If you reach that stage you might as well have regulations about this.. Also something I liked when I run with the Motorsports Club in Houston is that they would place all the racers together in the same group which was separate than the other groups. While we still had point by's , we all felt more relaxed running together and the rules were a bit more relaxed too which was fun for sure.. Oh and yes there I was able to use my turn signals because I had the net up

M758

I have a window net and use hand signal even during races. I mostly use them to point by faster car lapping me.

As I racer I like seeing signals even in a race as it tells me the driver in front know that I am coming and intents to yield.



Also When I DE or autocross the car I always run net up. Why? I it safety gear I have in the car and use it all the time. You never know what could happen.

JimB

Of all the passing indicators I have seen on DE day before a club race I still like Nord Stern's the best. In our region, the car being overtaken creates a contract by turning on their right turn signal (we only pass on the left) indicating that they are moving right/off-line. They move off line leaving on their right turn signal until they intend to move back online at which time they put on their left turn signal, pause and then move back online. I like this for a number of reasons.

There is absolutely no question that the lead car knows you are there. They both signal and move.

It encourages the car being overtaken to slow for a moment. Signal, move right, lift, go.

There is no question when the car being overtaken is coming back online. They signal and then move.

Everything works just the way it does on the street. Signal right, go right. Signal left, go left.

Cornerworkers can see a turning signal much better than a point.

Pointing is great for racers but for DE I like the simple turn signal approach.
Jim

mrbill_fl

how do you address race cars without turn signals?

RedlineMan

Jim;

That sounds like an interesting system. I imagine it does work quite well... if you are used to it. Unfortunately, there are two BIG problems I see with it:

1) I've NEVER heard of anything remotely like that before. That means it must be rather less than universal, and that means it will create problems for people not used to it.

2) Race day advanced DE groups asside, we in the NE DO NOT want our students going off line to be passed.

Using hand signals is a very universal system, and if it is done correctly, there is no doubt and no hassle. As an extremely experienced passee, I feel qualified to make that statement!

JimB

MrBill,
There really aren't that many race cars without signals but we allow them to do point-bys. It's usually in the instructors group where it's no big deal.

Redline,
Visitors pick it up very quickly. It's just like driving on the freeway. Signal lane change, change lanes, signal return, return.

I would argue that it's much safer for students. Both because it's what they are used to doing on the freeway and more importantly the way the pass is completed. Most likely both cars are students. In your method the passing student that is traveling faster and is closer to the next corner has to determine that they are clear of the car they are passing before returning to the proper line. That means the off-line passing student must either wait until they see the car they are passing in their mirrors, glance over their shoulder or guess when to pull back on-line. In our method the faster car that is closer to the corner is online and the slower car can pull back online when they see the faster car clear. It's really much safer on short straights.

I'm not saying it's the best way but it sure seems like a better approach.
Jim

RedlineMan

Jim;

I did not mean to say that the idea was BAD. It seems to have some merit, for sure.

However, I still feel the "regular" method is more realistic in terms of what happens on a race track. Slower cars do not move over for cars passing them in a race, nor SHOULD they. The rule of thumb is just drive the line and the faster guy will get by. NEVER do anything unexpected. I know guys who have been wrecked by slower drivers doing "courteous" things.

One thing that I use the "normal" method of the faster car going off line to teach is... off line cornering. If a student who has been programmed to be soooo on line has to go off line for whatever reason, they will often times panic.

When such a passing situation presents itself, I set the student up very early, instruct them to stay off line, and have them do a proper off line corner setup. I think this is a very benefiical lesson for novices to learn.

The drill for late pass cornering instruction for other's benefit:

- "Stay right in the lane you used to pass. This leaves a lane for the other driver and does not risk chopping anyone off."
- "Go a little deeper than your normal turn in, brake a little harder to slow a little more, then turn in a little more decisively, and throttle the car a little sooner."
- "No big deal, eh?"

After soo much hard work on getting the line right, most students find this a revelation. Most informative for them. In the sense of this being a more "normal" passing event on a race track, I think the "normal" DE passing method offers this meaningful opportunity, where your method does not.

Just thinking out loud.

JimB

John,
All very good points. Clearly both methods have merit. I'm sure we'll be switching to the more accepted method in the near future to meet PCA's DE standards. The worse part is going to be running in MN in October with the windows down. brrrrrr!

Have a good day,
Jim

RedlineMan

I hear ya there.

I've run with a coat and my heater on in the morning MANY times... after scraping the windshield!

ed devinney

I was fortunate to spend last Sunday at the Nurburgring and found the use of turn signals to be OK but not better than hand signals, IMHO.

As I was the overtaken car about 99 times out of 100, I found it unnerving that there wasn't a clear exchange between the overtaking and overtaken car - I DE in Potomac region where we also use the concept of a contract in passing. Without the exchange I wasn't always sure where the faster guys would go by, which in twisty bits was unpleasant because the passing was unpredictable. I knew that they were coming and where they probably would be going, but that's more risk that I like. The regulars there are probably totally predictable and may know the standard moves of the newbies, but if you're new to the dance it's really hard to fit in. I like to be proactive about keeping myself alive and didn't like having to depend on the passers to do it safely, even though the overtaking drivers understand their duty to pass safely per German traffic law.

That traffic law part adds to the fun. If following traffic laws, it's reasonable that drivers should signal and keep right to allow others to pass on the left. This works OK when you're being passed by only one car. It is less good when there are multiple cars passing. It works rather badly when the overtaking cars are following a line through corners and that line may intersect the path of a car following the right hand curb per traffic laws. But that's not a pure blinker vs hand signal issue.

So maybe it's more about policy than signal mechanism, but to make the long story short I'm left with the conclusion that hand signals allow for a clear "you go now" to *each* overtaking car, and that this reduces the risks inherent in passing.

mitch236

Think about this one, how many times have you seen folks driving around with their turn signals on permanantly?

agio

In short, using turn signals for passing presents certain difficulties....these are all ariticulated above. Using proper hand signals (if not handicapped) is the sure way to let the car(s) behind you know without any doubt that you have recognized them and are giving them the safe and clear pass.
Turn signals, particularly to the novice, is likely to cause some counterintuitive thinking on either the car being passed; the passer or both. If you have an instructor in the car, a clear point bye is the preferred method since some turn signals on the dash board can only be seen by the driver.
The point bye is an overt, clear and present act giving permission for a safe pass. The turn signal could inadvertantly be left active or worse, returning the turn stem to the (non neutral) "other" side and could create havoc!
It's really easy...the driver only sticks his arm out of the window and points each car by.

penguinking

there was a night event at texas motor speedway and blinkers were used as passing signals. at least in our group, didn't have a single problem adjusting to it. not to mention you couldn't see someones arm sticking out b/c it was dark =P

JoelG

The biggest argument I can think of for using hand signals rather than blinkers is that it helps the students know that "they arent in Kansas anymore", that is that this place (the track) is different and they should do things differently here. I think using blinkers might lull them into doing things the way the do them on the street, and I dont think thats a good thing.

Joel

Sanjeevan

Actually there are merits to either system, but this one nails it for ME, reason enough for me to stick to hand signals.