mamoroso

I am 6'3" and the other issue I have is that I do not wear a helmet whilst driving to work... so the risk of a head trauma is real. Then again hitting the A pillar should not be that much different than hitting the cage.

I don't know... maybe I should just bite the bullet, get rid of the rear seats, install a roll bar and at least wear the harness all the time. That would diminish the chances of a trauma in normal driving conditions.

gbaker

The side nets help to reduce cervical spine (neck) loads in lateral impacts. Most head and neck restraints provide no protection in those circumstances.

fatbillybob

Safety gear is an important issue but should not be a knee jerk reaction to tragedy. Does anyone know if the devices mentioned would have done anygood in this case? We don't know the facts. Remember how Senna died from a piece of suspension hitting him in the head? At the time he had the best of the best and it wasn't good enough. That said it seems that safety is a moving target. By the time you get all the safety gear in your car something else seeems to come along. That's good I guess. Lets see I started with 5 point belts, full bolted 6 point cage,helmet, nets, carbon fiber seat and later bought a HANS. Well unless you are well contained HANS slips off you so. I am just about ready to start my conversion to a full 10 point welded cage (so far parts equipment cost $1500. It is safer and I can mount the harness bar exactly as HANS intends.) , full containment seat (1000 custom ultrashield), HANS(900), HANS dual shoulder strap 6 point belts (600), bigger nets (200),QR sterring hub ($85, full containment seats traps me in car). Who knows what else I'll need. Add all that crap up and my car is now heavier and slower and I can't move in the car, my vision is limited to about 30 degrees left and right and I have to rely on my giant special rearview mirror. I feel like a xmas gift wrapped in bubble wrap. No to make light of a very serious topic but is this sex with two condoms?

TD in DC

I guess my question is how could your body move enough to actually contact the nets if you are strapped into a 6 or 7 point harness in a racing seat? In other words, if you are strapped in well, then you would already be injured by the time your head reaches the net, wouldn't you?

gbaker

Not really, because the head can snap so far to the side that your neck becomes horizontal, even though your torso is still snug in the seat. There was an SAE paper on this subject presented in December.

Nets are an attempt to control lateral loads by controlling the motion of the head relative to the body. The other way to solve the problem is to let the H&N restraint do it, but that's a tall order.

RJay

I've yet to use the device in my car as the car has yet to be finished. I did however try it out in an Instructors M3 last weekend and found that while I was aware of its presense, it was reasonably benign. It was no different getting in and out with the device on or off. I was able to see 90 degrees in both dierctions though a combination of head turn and eye ball motion (although I wear glasses so the last 20 degrees or so I'm not seeing 20/20. I did notice a slight bit of discomfort in the collar bone area, but I suspect, to echo the comments of others on thses pages, that after using it for a day or so, it will become pretty natural and not pose and significant problems.

JBH

FBB: You are correct - we do not understand the details of the accident and the trauma to the occupants (RIP). However, there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to safety. For whatever reasons, we tend to minimize or not recognize the danger of certain situations. I see this all the time when I visit engineering laboratories in small companies. Inadequate eye protection, lack of formal safety reviews, no standard operating procedures, etc - safety equipment is not used becaue it is awkward, uncomfortable, or just unsightly. I can not emphasize enough what was said earlier: before any performance modification is made, a vehicle owner should install the basic safety devices of seat, roll bar and harnesses. Knowing what we do about neck and head trauma, a H&N device should be part of that list too.

924RACR

Exactly as Gregg's said, the seat and belts are not able to constrain your motion well enough. Best said by Dr. Melvin, you can't stop the head from moving till you've stopped the shoulders, and you can't stop the shoulders until you stop the pelvis. That's why 6-points and 7-points are better than 5, they stop the pelvis that much sooner.

Race seats, the Racetech Viper seat being the possible exception, are unable to keep you well enough constrained in all angles of impact. Even the Ultrashields, which are great, are less effective in obliques. That's why the side nets work well; even with such seats, they will make sure that on oblique hits your body will return back into the seat properly (instead of, for example, hitting the supports). It's a safety package, and is worth more than the sum of the parts.

CC, you'd really benefit from seeing the video Tom Gideon (GM Racing - Safety) has of Johnny Benson's lateral hit into a retaining wall during an ARCA race. Full alum. race seat, etc. He folds right over in the seat, sideways (towards the "passenger" side). His goggles are ripped off his face - and this is in a hit that looks like nothing from the outside.

I've been through this myself, wearing an ISAAC, without a net, 6-point belts, and Kirkey seat. I hit the Petty bar. Got lucky, mainly. The ISAAC worked, but there was nothing to stop my shoulders from going over, so it wasn't able to do much. Still better than nothing.

I should've included the link to the vendor for the NASCAR interior nets (as I have right now) - $80 poly interior net:
http://www.bsrproducts.com/homepage.cfm

Check out Product Overview, Window Nets. It's the NASCAR right-side net, bottom of the page.

kurt M

It is a common and understandable logic fallacy to look at the notable but unlikely and let it influence or compromise reasoning with regards to the likely.

Some setups that are a compromise with regards to a full system do in fact add much real world safety.

1. Going without a good restraint system is far less safe than a good system without a roll bar.

2. Street driving with as roll bar or cage is less safe than not having one unless you have your helmet on. Driving on the street with your helmet on will cause people to think you are a bit of a nut and they might have a point. (Not to mention the boys in blue will not be able to resist the desire to pull you over to see what is up. “Out of the car speedracer”)

It is a matter of likelihoods. You are FAR more likely to have a multiple G impact than have any kind of compartment intrusion rollover. Period. Rollovers that crush the roof down do happen but are so rare that when they do happen they get posted all over the place. Wrecks involving the front, side, rear and any combinations of the above are so common that they do not make news unless unusual in some other way. They happen to someone almost every weekend at almost any DE or race event.

The argument that you can prevent a head or spine injury in a rollover by ducking is not based on physics of the human body. The same energy that is being exerted on the roof is with equal but opposite force acting on YOU. You don’t get hit by the roof . You hit the roof. Put a potato in a trash can and shake the can. That is you if unrestrained in a wreck. You don’t have to crush the can to obliterate the spud. Multiply your body weight by 10, 20,30 or 40. A 30 mph impact into a hard surface is almost 40 Gs. You’re going to duck with 2 tons of force pulling you in the other direction? You might be able to if you can also bench press you car. Even the steroid enhanced Gubiner of Cal- e-fornya can’t pull that one.
Face it, in an impact you cannot restrain yourself, that is what the belts are for. Don’t deny yourself a good restraint system that will help protect you.

A full cage and restraint system is the best way to go but only when used as a full system. A full system in a street car without helmet? Less safe that stock. Ger a harness bar and leave it unless you are using the rear seats. Get a roll bar but put the bar in and take it out every time.

JBH

I think there are - a harness truss will not protect you in the event of a roll over. I consider this possibility likely enough (both track and street) that I installed a roll bar.

The cage would be better, but then you would need to wear a helmet everytime you drove the car. The roll bar is set far enough back that there is no chance of your head hitting (or if it does, you have a horrific situation)

kurt M

Do you have a seat back brace in the car? If so you are not likely to hit the bar with your head. If not the chances go up. Watch a rear impact video and look at what happens to seats. They fold open and the upper torso reclines rearward. Getting hit at a stoplight is one example and 911s do have a tendency to go into the tire walls back end first.

A truss will help protect you in a rollover. The bar is better only in a roof crushing rollover. Rollovers are rare, Roof deforming rollovers are only a small percentage of rollovers an so are even more rare.

JBH

Yes to the seat back brace - good point!

Rare as they may be, when they do occur, the outcome is usually bad. I feel better knowing it is there.

Juan Lopez

For me this is a long list but here goes:

1. Have all car systems checked and repaired/replaced
2. Have car “bolt ‘n nuts” (check all fasteners and torque to specs).
3. Check all fuel, brake, oil (and if applicable cooling) lines checked
4. Use steel lugs and torque them properly
5. Roll cage (I guess bar if a cage is not agreeable to your normal use of the vehicle)
6. 6 point belts (5 point minimum)
7. Properly mounted seat (better yet, use race specific reinforced mounting)
8. Fuel Cell
9. Window Net
10. Center Net
11. Fire Suit (gloves, boots, underwear)
12. A quality H&N device
13. Electrical Cut off (properly labeled !!!)
14. Fire System (properly labeled !!!)
15. If not originally equipped, a collapsible steering column
16. Practice your exit maneuver in case of an emergency (out either drivers side or passenger side)

I thik there are currently some conflicting opinins on the use of seat back braces. I've been told to use a collapsible support on mine (which is bolted to the seat back). Any ideas or further info on this?

I’d like to see what additions/comments you all have to this list.

Cheers, Juan

Bill_C4S

Kurt M - appreciate your logic. what I struggle to follow is that if Roll Bars are unsafe , how on earth do the GT3 RS and GT3 CS road car fitments - Tequipment roll bar standard - pass muster with the German TUV.

We are not talking a trivial sanctioning body in this instance....

mamoroso

Kurt M and JBH
I have Recaro racing cells, that should take care of the risk of hitting the bar, correct?

So the steps would be:
1) Get a harness truss, 6 point harness, net and HANS/Isaac for track use on the basis that roll over that crush the roof are a less likely occurrence than a lateral/frontal high G impact.
2) Get a roll bar. This will diminish the risk in the event of a roll over and it is not as dangerous as a full cage in street driving.

Are my conclusions correct?