ltc

There is virtually no downside to any of the available H&N restraints (ISAAC, HANS, R3).

Getting out of it takes a working thumb to push the release button. Matter of seconds.

Here is a link to a video showing the buttons on the helmet pins:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/Othe...tructions.html

As with any personal safety equipment, it's best to try it before you buy it. This is true with helmets from different manufacturers (they all assume different head shapes and you want to find the one that fits YOUR head), true with seat manufacturers (some people don't like the fit/form of a Sparco vs a Recaro vs a Butler, etc)......H&N are no different.

You may consider looking into the ISAAC rental program to try one out in a car on track before you decide to purchase:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/product.html#Rental

(no, I don't work for nor am I affiliated with ISAAC, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.....sorry, always liked those commercials)

Sanjeevan

Lewis, it appears to me that the back extension on the R3 will get in the way of comfort and posture against the seat back when harnessed in..?

Larry Herman

I received mine today. The back of the R3 is a lot flatter than it looks in the pictures. They also give you an insert to put in/on your seat that has a perfect cutout if you need it. I'll let you know how it fits tomorrow.

Sanjeevan

Thanks, i'll appreciate it..

Geo

Y'all can keep your back breakers, er, braces. Not in my car. No thanks. No way. No how.

There are things I like about the aluminum seats. I've even thought about making my own CF seat. But I won't use either if I have to use a back brace.

As for the FIA getting it right or wrong, that is a total red herring. The seats are homologated using whatever mounting specified by the seat manufacturer. It's the seat manufacturers that say no way, no how to the back braces. And I'd wager the major manufacturers of FIA homologated seats test theirs a lot more than the almunimum seat manufacturers.

TD in DC

George,

I bought a Kirkey aluminum seat because (1) it fit me the best and (2) it was the only seat I found that had holes in it high enough to be higher than my shoulders for the shoulder straps. When buying my seat, I received conflicting advice. Some said that aluminum seats were great because it eliminated the need for seat braces. Others said that aluminum seats above all necesitate a seat back brace.

I understand from you post that you do not like them, but please explain the conventional wisdom and the reason why you do not want to use one.

Thanks,

TD

fatbillybob

TD in DC,

You are right to be concerned. Any safety system can fail and every safety system we buy makes us feel better but may not really be safer. Two condoms in not better than one. Using one does not mean disease transmission or pregnancy is impossible. To answer your question I went through this same research voer the last few years. First you have to live by the rules of who you race with. Here you are talking about H&N. But the problems you currently face continues when you talk about 5point or 6point or hybrid hans harnesses or 2" lap belts etc.... Assuming you have read the rules or race in very loose club level with no rules you can build the car the way you want. For example some rules do not allow welding the cage to the a- pillers or welding to suspension. But we know that welding to these points stiffens and makes these cars tougher. Likewise you need to have the safety system work in concert. For example a HANS does you nothing if you don't buckle your harness. From all the research I have been able to gather HANS works best in a really tight environment. Even rumors have some element of truth and if some of the HANS rumors are true such as slipping shoulder belts upon impact then the safety system is failing. A huge number of sactioning bodies like HANS and many have a cludge to allow fixes to HANS problems (eventhough H&D think there device is perfect). For example full containment seats meaning wings assist you in lateral impacts and hold your body into the seat so that shoulder belts reduce slipping off HANS. Scroth has tested and make two designs of HANS harness. The older Hybrid 2"/3" shoulder belt universally available ($300ish) and a newer very rare and very expensive dual shoulder strap (4 belt) design. Also, Over the years HANS has altered the mounting requirements for successful use of the device. What we are told today is different from a few years ago when the device was "perfect". So that is the primary cobbled up method you need for the best HANS results. The cost of the HANS is only the first expense. It costs you 600 bucks for the 4belt dual shoulder HANS harness. The cheapest 5point is 60 bucks. I dumped a bueatiful 8lb carbon OMP schell for a POS aluminium built like a brick sh%thouse Ultrashield custom fullcontainment seat for $1200.00 with shipping. If you can't weld and fabricate you will need a welder to fab up your harness bar to accept and fimrly control your shoulder belts in the right position. Zipties will not do it. You may need even more $ in fabrication if you do the 4 shoulderbelt harness because the body belt is mounted in a different place than the HANS belt. That fab costs you more money. On the other hand the Isaac can be used under all conditions with any harness and any seat since it claims action in 360 degrees. Your costs for safety gear end with the single ISAAC purchase. Yes all the other stuff helps and improves your safety sytem but the ISAAC does not need all the other junk to function as the engineer intended. This IMO is a huge advantage. To some the primary fear is head loads but there is more that can be injured than just the head and full containment makes sense to me but costs much more. The only problem I see with the Isaac is the lack of SFI certification regardless of the political value of SFI and the lack of generalized acceptance by many pro sanctioning bodies. I am no pro but the pros carry weight. I think they know something I don't know. Even SCCA had some issues with it not allowing it but not restricting you from wearing it. It was confusing. I have used both devices for a couple years each. I was very happy with my ISAAC and it was the most like wearing no device at all. The HANS is very restrictive and it is like two condoms...how much fun is that? I now only use the HANS as my tintop cockpit has been modified to use it and I have succumbed to herd mentality. And always remember next month some "new" safety tidbit will make us do something else. If ISAAC could be allowed as an alternative device in say F1 or CART etc... I would flip a 180 and go back to ISAAC.

Last thing on seats there is racetech, recaro who make fine FC seats if you can fit them. Shoulderbelt hole position is critical with HANS and HANS harness variants. Ultrashield is a custom seat. Thanks go to REDLINEMAN John H. for telling Rennlist about Ultrashield.

So that's one user's opinion YMMV...

fatbillybob

Geo,

Open cars have the seat fabed into the tub which is basically like a tintop with a backbrace isn't it? I don't see any problems with solid mounting of the seats carbon or Aluminium if the seats are mounted so the back can't collapse. I always thought you wanted the whip to be like a catchers mitt to decelrate you in rear impact. Some say you want instant decel no whip. I don't understand the biomechanics of whippy seat vs. solid back seat either by bracing or building into the tub. What I have seen are many wrecks like Ralf Shumachers 100G rear impact into a wall a few years ago and he lived to race again. To my knowledge those are solidly built into the tub just like back braces do for tintops. Can you explain why I am wrong on this? What am I not getting? Persoanally, I was planning to run two small tubes right along the back of my seat about armpit width from the harness bar and under my seat and into the sill tubes of my cage so that the seat is mounted to the cage. In effect a solid tub "a la" open wheel racers. I think NASCAR seats are now similarly mounted...solid in all directions. Also, FWIW the Ultrashield seat is 20" deep with really high side bolsters higher than competing CF seats. The back of a seat is important but the sides are too. It is 0.25" thick with extra gussets and weights a ton! So it should not fold even w/o a brace.

TD in DC

Earlier today, I almost pulled the trigger on an ISAAC until . . . I started thinking about the new less expensive model. Here is what bugs me. Almost all of the ISAAC marketing is based on touting the benefits of using a shock absorber system to allow movement at slow speeds but prevent movement at high speed. This makes intuitive sense to me. The new less expensive model relies on straps, and yet ISAAC claims it protects nearly as well. What gives? Doesn't this undercut much of the primary marketing materials? Also, if injury does not occur until 900, the expensive ISAAC permits 200 and the introductory permits 400, why wouldn't you always get the inexpensive strapped model since it, in theory, would permit greater range of movement and, presumably, more protection for lateral impacts. Yet, if you are considering a strap design, the R3 seems like a better choice AND is approved by a lot of the sanctioning bodies. Plus, you can take the R3 with you from car to car. ARRGGHHHH.

Geo

1) I don't want some hard shaft pointed at my spine.

2) I prefer a seat that will absorb some energy.

3) I prefer a seat that won't deform and stay deformed.

Dan Gallagher

Do people ever sell used hans devices, and how much would they go for?

Juan Lopez

Geo,

I have a back brace and it has been sugested that I change the shaft with an impact absorbing/deforming one ala steering column. I appreciate your thoughts on this...

924RACR

The strapped ISAAC (LINK) isn't expected to do really anything for you in a lateral, whereas the regular ISAAC should. That, and the improvement in long. load reduction, are the reasons you might want to spend the extra cash for the shocks.

That said, I'd rather have an interior net and a LINK than an ISAAC (with shocks) and no net. Already crash-tested the latter config. I now have both the net and the ISAAC w/ shocks.

924RACR

Oh, yeah, another thing to think about WRT webbing devices: the longer straps are, the more they stretch. The R3 and HANS have similar lengths, I believe. The ISAAC LINK is shorter, if I'm not mistaken.

Geo

Juan, this is purely my opinion....

I still wouldn't want the back brace. I bought an FIA homologated seat specifically because I wouldn't be required to use the brace (of any sort).