Geo

Amen John. I think this is where we got and get crossed up (and did last year too). My feeling is so what if the information chages every six months - publish the best that is known at the time and make it available for everyone.

I don't care so much about getting in as as getting out.

Bull

Here we have yet another victim of the litigation that goes on in this country, particularly around product liability, etc.

hacker-pschorr

Ok, I just read every post and my head is spinning. I'm going to install Recaro Pole Position seats (5 and 6 point compatible). Now I'm not sure what harness to buy. Looking at the Simpson setup, I to am confused as to how they work. Sabelt lists these for single seat cars:

RedlineMan

Erik;

That is what is known as a "formula" belt system. They are specifically designed for single seat race cars with highly reclined seating positions. In this system, the sub straps are worn very tight to the groin and are directly responsible for keep the driver's hips under the lap belt. They can be used for sedans, but in order to make them work properly, you must mount the tails of the sub belts far rearward and also wear them tight like a cradle.

Because the sub belts do not attach directly to the lap belt, they do not load it immediately in a crash. Because loading - and therefore retention - of the lap belt is not direct and immediate, the sub straps must be worn tight to DIRECLTY hold the driver under the lap belt. Frankly, they are not the best choice for upright sedan seating positions because wearing them tight to the groin is not all that comfortable.

A crash sequence sees the hips moving first (4-6" +/- on average), followed by a longer travel for the torso (12-16"!!!). The longer things move, the more violent the whip (and force) when they are finally restrained. Having a sub system that attaches directly to the lap belt keeps it in place much better, and completes it loading much sooner in the event. This also transfers movement from the lap belt into the shoulder straps much quicker. All of this, plus modern polyester material that does not stretch as much, conspires to stop the motion of the body much sooner, which is far safer than if it were a slower sequence. Also, because of this immediate belt loading, you do not rely directly on the sub straps to cradle your hips, and so this allows you to mount the sub ends more forward (not having to sit on them). They therefore do not cut into your groin as bad, and are more comfortable. They shift from directly holding your hips to simply keeping the lap belt low.

Look at my post #7 for a direct mount sub, this being a Simpson Platinum Latch & Link setup. Also my post #14 that shows a Willans direct T-bar sub setup (the blue ones). The Simpson belts in that post are Formula like the Sabelt you posted.

Does this make sense?

hacker-pschorr

This is starting to make sense. I'll be at Road America tomorrow for an SVRA vintace race. I plan to play close attention to what type of harness setups these guys are running.

I guess it's between the Sabelt and the Simpson you posted.

fatbillybob

John and I had an extensive Email about this last issue he posted about. Thanks John for the education. The Scroth Hybrid 6 point does all the right things. Its 6 point sub connects directly to the lap belts to control the hips and works in sedans. On top of that if you are a bit over the top like I am trying to be HMS Motorsport can get the extra two HANS belts too so you have 3" for the shoulders and 2" for the HANS. That's like 8 points but really they call it a 6. O.K Eric...I just made your life more complicated. Why? Well the extra HANS belts is claimed to help prevent belt slip off. The best 6point single shoulder belt solution is claimed to be the Scroth hybrid 6 point HANS specific belts because they taper from 3" to 2" over the HANS then back to 3" claiming to reduce slipage off the HANS. Frankly I current am using sabelt 5point until my new rig comes and they are just straight 3" and they do not slip off my HANS but I have not crashed either.

hacker-pschorr

HANS device, I haven't even thought about using one of those yet. I am only doing DE's right now, no plans to move up to racing any time soon.

So if I go with a Schroth Hybrid 6-point, I won't have to add any more hole's to my car.
This thread might help explain my current setup:

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/203597-harness-mounting-question.html

hacker-pschorr

http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci.../hybrid_II.htm
Ok, so what makes the Hybrid special is the sub belts mount to the lap belt, not with a seperate T buckle.
That still leaves the question: Do you run the sub belts through the seat (using a proper 6-point seat) to be bolted to the floor, or back through the lap belt hole's to be attached beside/behind the seat.

Larry Herman

You can stuff your car just as hard at a DE as you can in a race. That's why I ordered 3 H&N devices for me and my 2 sons. We'll be wearing them at every DE as soon as they come in.

hacker-pschorr

I know - running at Road America doesn't make it any better either - concrete city. I need to give the HANS some serious thought.

Back to the belts - any reason why I shouldn't run these?
http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci...ofi_II_6_F.htm

I guess I don't see the difference between the hybrid setup where the sub belt attaches to the lap belt vs the shoulder belt. Or am I missing something again?

Larry Herman

I don't know if I see much of an effective difference between them. Maybe John can shed some light on it.

BTW, why is a 5 point harness like a cheap hotel???


No Ballroom

fatbillybob

Hacker,

The reason as I understand from John is that the classic formula style does not apply as much control to the lap belt since is is not connected to it but through it via the shoulder belt tabs. This classic formula style permits your hips to move more before they are locked down in a crash. The Scroth hybrid connects antisub to the lapbelts helping to control the hips better thus anti sub. I think the Scroth site has moutning instruction and my recollection is that they go thourgh the seat bottom about 20 degrees back from the family jewels. Don't quote me on that see the install instructions. My understanding from John is not so much 6point via the bottom cushion seat hole or formula parachute style but what controls the lap belt best but maximized comfort for the family jewels. O.K. add in more confusion the Scroth guys say a 2" lap belt controls the hips better than a 3" belt so then you go for http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci...ybrid_II_H.htm if HANS or http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci...hybrid_III.htm if non-HANS. Check your rungroups some do not allow 2" laps. I think there was some talk about that for POC or PCA????

RedlineMan

Hey;

Thumbs up to Larry for leadership in H&N use. A 914 1.8l can generate enough force to kill you. 30-35mph is all it takes! It just doesn't make sense to not have one these days as far as I'm concerned.

Erik -

Here's the sequence. When you hit something, the lap belt is the first to load. Your legs are heavy, and are below the lap belt, which then acts like a pivot. Your hips will be pulled forward by the heavy legs, which tends to rotate your hips forward, and pulls down on the torso.Your entire body is moving down and under the lap belt until something restrains it. That would be the sub.

A correctly adjusted sub should be VERY short and will see the lap belts VERY tight to the tops of your thighs. The lower the lap belt is, the less body mass there is to rotate under it. In extreme cases, the sub will stop this forward hip rotation DIRECTLY. You can see the disadvantage of "having nowhere to dance" in your cheap motel, eh? Single sub = no ballroom. Instant Caruso!

The quicker the lap/sub combo takes up slack, the quicker the shoulder straps will be tensioned. Your torso is moving forward 3-4x as far as the hips for various reasons. The longer it is allowed to travel, the worse the head whip when it stops. H&N to the rescue at this point... hopefully.

The Schroth you pictured is a formula setup, no different than the Sparco you posted earlier. Schroth, Willans, and others I'm sure make T-bar subs which work very well for retention. The only "drawback" to these is that the extra space of having the "T" under the lap belt latch means the lap belt must be worn slightly higher on the hips. Higher means more hip rotation under the lap belt. Schroth came up with the Hybrid which solves that problem. It is absolutely state of the art.

Schroth also offers the 2" lap belt which has been shown to remain in the "fold" of your hips much better, and not to ride up over your iliac crests. The 3/2 shoulder straps for HANS use have been found to stay on them better because the narrower width does not allow as much (or any) belt to hang off the top surface of the HANS collar/tips.

Any sub that attaches directly to the lap belt is King. Then, which allow you the freedom "to dance" have obvious benefits! I prefer to remain a Baritone myself.

hacker-pschorr

Cool, the Schroth Hybrid belt it is then.
My friends with C5's are using a Schroth T-bar setup with the sub's attached right next to the lap belt. Works very well, but not comfortable at all.

I’m still puzzled as to what a 7-point harness is.

RedlineMan

Hey;

A 7-point is a 3 belt sub. One straight down and two out to the sides. The single straight down sub is the BEST for rollovers. The double wide (T-bar/Hybrid) are best for hip retention and "jewel space." Combining them gives you all the benefits of both.

Any sub that attaches directly to the lap belt is King. Then you look at ballroom. Any T-bar double sub is good. The Simpson Platinum Latch & Link or the Schroth Hybrid (and maybe others) are tops. Direct load on the lap belt, hip retention, NO load on your gonads.