5 pt or 6 pt belts
02-19-2005, 01:02 PM
#31
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Edward, you stated my point much better than I did and you got it exactly. According to Chad Demarco at Sube Sports (who sells a lot of seats and is the U.S. Cobra importer) it is safer to run a 5 point than a 6 point thorugh a 5 point opening for the reason you stated. Call him up he will be happy to discuss it with any one of you. He is a former pro rally driver and takes safety very seriously. He is at 714-847-1501 or http://www.subesports.com/
02-19-2005, 01:35 PM
#32
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Thanks, John (much clearer to me now) and vegasgolf for the recommendation!
So since the truly proper way to mount a double sub is to run them behind the lap-belt holes and not through them (and I don't want to cut slots into my fglass seat), I guess I am back to 5points, unless I missed something ...again
Thanks guys for the specifics AND the education!!
Edward
So since the truly proper way to mount a double sub is to run them behind the lap-belt holes and not through them (and I don't want to cut slots into my fglass seat), I guess I am back to 5points, unless I missed something ...again
Thanks guys for the specifics AND the education!!
Edward
02-19-2005, 02:43 PM
#34
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I'm sorry....
How about some remedial thread reading?
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...84&postcount=1
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=29
Here is a safety thread from last year. There was a great deal of speculation posted and there still is today. None of us here are professionals in the safety field except Gregg Baker. The rest of us are monkeys trying to figure it out. The first two posts linked above are from Vaughn who attended a couple of safety seminars with Dr. Melvin. Again, I'll stick with Dr. Melvin's advice. I've read where his sled testing says that the 6-pt is absolutely the way to go. I'll have to see if I can find that again.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=melvin
How about some remedial thread reading?
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...84&postcount=1
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=29
Here is a safety thread from last year. There was a great deal of speculation posted and there still is today. None of us here are professionals in the safety field except Gregg Baker. The rest of us are monkeys trying to figure it out. The first two posts linked above are from Vaughn who attended a couple of safety seminars with Dr. Melvin. Again, I'll stick with Dr. Melvin's advice. I've read where his sled testing says that the 6-pt is absolutely the way to go. I'll have to see if I can find that again.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=melvin
02-19-2005, 03:06 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Geo
I've read where his sled testing says that the 6-pt is absolutely the way to go. I'll have to see if I can find that again.
02-19-2005, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ltc
5 points do not appear to be in favor:
FWIW, I recently ordered a Schroth Hybrid 2 Titanium 6 point (was built in Germany this week and will hopefully have it in 1-2 weeks).
http://www.schroth.com/english/produ...ogy_hybrid.htm
http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci..._hybrid_II.htm
The hybrid sub belt mounting is comfortable, based on comments and a test fit with the harness.
I have a Recaro ProRacer SPG seat, which supports 4,5 or 6 point belt mountings.
FWIW, I recently ordered a Schroth Hybrid 2 Titanium 6 point (was built in Germany this week and will hopefully have it in 1-2 weeks).
http://www.schroth.com/english/produ...ogy_hybrid.htm
http://www.schroth.com/produkte/raci..._hybrid_II.htm
The hybrid sub belt mounting is comfortable, based on comments and a test fit with the harness.
I have a Recaro ProRacer SPG seat, which supports 4,5 or 6 point belt mountings.
02-19-2005, 05:10 PM
#37
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Great thread and there are many valid points here. I recently went the 5-pt harness way because my club (POC) still allows them. I think one thing that is being misunderstood here, I think, is that even though many people support the 6-pt over the 5-pt, it does not mean that the latter is unsafe.
02-19-2005, 05:21 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by E36S50
This looks like a great option! I read over the info on the Schroth site but I am not clear on what special mounting needs this harness needs compared to a normal 5pt. I will be using them with a Sparco EVO2 seat, what else will I need to do?
What they told me is that these are NOT cradle/sit on the lapbelt style harnesses. They are mounted according to the Schroth .pdf file (which was posted earlier in this thread by M758). They said that the 'sit on the lapbelt' style harnesses are mainly seen in Formula (laydown) style seating.
They said they are compatible with my ProRacer SPG seat via the long slot in front of the crotch (in both seat and cushions). The harnesses come with complete instructions, which I will likely read over a few times, just to make sure I understand all of this. They are clip in style belts.
I went with the Titanium Hybrid II 6 points for lightweight (Titanium....sorry, engineers are drawn to things like this similar to a moth to a flame), comfort (2" lapbelts and Hybrid mounting system) and use in current GT3 factory Cup cars.
02-19-2005, 07:12 PM
#39
Race Director
I think HMSMotorsport is not up on the latest from Dr. John Melvin. The 6 pt harness is not just for formula style cars. Also, Schroth themselves produces a 6pt harness that you sit on (the Profi - F).
From this article:
http://www.gm.com/cgi-bin/pr_display.pl?4045
"The HANS device prevents the whipping motion of the head," explained Gideon. "When a body moves forward and then suddenly stops on impact, the head and helmet continue in an arc that puts enormous force on the neck. The HANS keeps the head moving with the shoulders and prevents it from traveling in that arc."
The six-point harness used in the Cavalier is designed to prevent the driver from sliding forward, a situation referred to as "submarining." While a conventional five-point harness system goes between the legs, the six-point design adds straps along each side of the legs to prevent the body from sliding forward.
"The six-point harness design has been around for many years," said Gideon. "Dr. John Melvin and the GM research staff adapted it to the seatbelts used in NASCAR, which until recently had always used a latch-and-link system. Drag racers and stock cars have a similar seating position, and in the extensive sled testing that we've conducted, we found that the six-point design outperforms a five-point harness. The five-point harness eventually arrests the tendency to slide forward, but by the time that takes place, more energy is transferred to the upper body and the chest absorbs more of the shock."
Here is a piece from corner-carvers. Note item number 4.
http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index...afety%20Issues
I know I read something more in-depth, but I cannot remember where for the life of me. I may well have been a magazine
I'm NOT saying I have the answers. Not in the least. In fact, if I have an opinion on safety I try to remember to clearly label it as such. I wish there was a better collection of information. Too much gets mixed with too much marketing hype. SFI should be such a place, but because of they are run by the manufacturers, forget it.
In the end, one has to search for their own answers. I'm still sticking with Doc Melvin.
From this article:
http://www.gm.com/cgi-bin/pr_display.pl?4045
"The HANS device prevents the whipping motion of the head," explained Gideon. "When a body moves forward and then suddenly stops on impact, the head and helmet continue in an arc that puts enormous force on the neck. The HANS keeps the head moving with the shoulders and prevents it from traveling in that arc."
The six-point harness used in the Cavalier is designed to prevent the driver from sliding forward, a situation referred to as "submarining." While a conventional five-point harness system goes between the legs, the six-point design adds straps along each side of the legs to prevent the body from sliding forward.
"The six-point harness design has been around for many years," said Gideon. "Dr. John Melvin and the GM research staff adapted it to the seatbelts used in NASCAR, which until recently had always used a latch-and-link system. Drag racers and stock cars have a similar seating position, and in the extensive sled testing that we've conducted, we found that the six-point design outperforms a five-point harness. The five-point harness eventually arrests the tendency to slide forward, but by the time that takes place, more energy is transferred to the upper body and the chest absorbs more of the shock."
Here is a piece from corner-carvers. Note item number 4.
http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index...afety%20Issues
I know I read something more in-depth, but I cannot remember where for the life of me. I may well have been a magazine
I'm NOT saying I have the answers. Not in the least. In fact, if I have an opinion on safety I try to remember to clearly label it as such. I wish there was a better collection of information. Too much gets mixed with too much marketing hype. SFI should be such a place, but because of they are run by the manufacturers, forget it.
In the end, one has to search for their own answers. I'm still sticking with Doc Melvin.
02-19-2005, 08:41 PM
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Please everyone, read carefully;
I have seen people ask questions or make statements that I have already answered/refuted/supported in my long winded replies.
Also, for those who might wonder (privately, or in this forum in print), what I am offering is NOT COMING OUT OF THIN AIR, OR MY HEAD. It is based on what I have read. What I have been able to find on this topic has unfortunately been very widespread and scattered. However, it ALL comes from such sources as Schroth, Isaac, Simpson, Safety Solutions, Hubbard-Downing, Performance Racing Industry, etc., etc. Even between these sources there can be found dissagreement and discrepancy, but it is the info of "EXPERTS," not my surmize.
When I am making a reasoned assumption, I say so. Otherwise, I am not simply aerating my ****.
Edward -
As I mentioned previously, Simpson says it is acceptable to mount the tails of the 2-point sub to the same mount as the lap belts to form a cradle.
I would prefer to see them terminate somewhere behind the seat, roughly at a point equal to the width of the seat base. I feel that the lap belt mounting may be a bit wider than would be optimal. A narrower mounting would seem to give the right balance between side width (to keep the subs pressed against your inner thigh) and projection to the rear to stop the forward hip motion better.
When seated, if one is far forward enough of the lap belt mount point that they run quite a bit rearward as well as out to the side (creating a loop around the hips), this would seem to be most correct. If the lap belt mount is directly beside ones hips, so that the belts are running out to the side closer to transverse than longitudinal (the lap belt is more flat over the hips than looped), that would not seem ideal to me. In other words, i'd want the termination point of the beltsto be a reasonable distance behind ones body, not to the side of it. Does THAT make any sense to anyone?
Hint: This is me thinking in my head! The stuff in RED illustrates my surmize... for those that don't realize that
And yet, to do other than mount at the lap belt point means cutting the seat, and I'm not sure that is an adviseable thing either. In the end, the lap belt point seems to be the best compromise for creating a cradle type sub mount.
Does this make sense?
I have mentioned the "T" style sub that is usually a metal tabbed clip-in for rotaries or latch and link. I do not necessarily see how these will allow enough free space for ones fiddly bits, just as standard single or double subs do not. When one adjusts a sub correctly, the lap belt is right on top of the thighs, and there is very little room below the tops of the thighs and the start of ones nether regions.
It seems to me that the wide terminating variety like this Willans at left...
... is far superior at protecting ones valuables than a more traditional double "V" type sub (right) if ones hips are slammed into the sub straps. In the case of the former, the belt catches skin and bone. In the latter, it squeezes grapes! These type are produced by Butler, Simpson, TeamTech, and others I'm sure.
I have seen people ask questions or make statements that I have already answered/refuted/supported in my long winded replies.
Also, for those who might wonder (privately, or in this forum in print), what I am offering is NOT COMING OUT OF THIN AIR, OR MY HEAD. It is based on what I have read. What I have been able to find on this topic has unfortunately been very widespread and scattered. However, it ALL comes from such sources as Schroth, Isaac, Simpson, Safety Solutions, Hubbard-Downing, Performance Racing Industry, etc., etc. Even between these sources there can be found dissagreement and discrepancy, but it is the info of "EXPERTS," not my surmize.
When I am making a reasoned assumption, I say so. Otherwise, I am not simply aerating my ****.
Edward -
As I mentioned previously, Simpson says it is acceptable to mount the tails of the 2-point sub to the same mount as the lap belts to form a cradle.
I would prefer to see them terminate somewhere behind the seat, roughly at a point equal to the width of the seat base. I feel that the lap belt mounting may be a bit wider than would be optimal. A narrower mounting would seem to give the right balance between side width (to keep the subs pressed against your inner thigh) and projection to the rear to stop the forward hip motion better.
When seated, if one is far forward enough of the lap belt mount point that they run quite a bit rearward as well as out to the side (creating a loop around the hips), this would seem to be most correct. If the lap belt mount is directly beside ones hips, so that the belts are running out to the side closer to transverse than longitudinal (the lap belt is more flat over the hips than looped), that would not seem ideal to me. In other words, i'd want the termination point of the beltsto be a reasonable distance behind ones body, not to the side of it. Does THAT make any sense to anyone?
Hint: This is me thinking in my head! The stuff in RED illustrates my surmize... for those that don't realize that
And yet, to do other than mount at the lap belt point means cutting the seat, and I'm not sure that is an adviseable thing either. In the end, the lap belt point seems to be the best compromise for creating a cradle type sub mount.
Does this make sense?
I have mentioned the "T" style sub that is usually a metal tabbed clip-in for rotaries or latch and link. I do not necessarily see how these will allow enough free space for ones fiddly bits, just as standard single or double subs do not. When one adjusts a sub correctly, the lap belt is right on top of the thighs, and there is very little room below the tops of the thighs and the start of ones nether regions.
It seems to me that the wide terminating variety like this Willans at left...
... is far superior at protecting ones valuables than a more traditional double "V" type sub (right) if ones hips are slammed into the sub straps. In the case of the former, the belt catches skin and bone. In the latter, it squeezes grapes! These type are produced by Butler, Simpson, TeamTech, and others I'm sure.
02-20-2005, 12:21 AM
#41
Race Director
Just found this... I'll be sending my check this week.
TOPEKA, Kan. (Jan. 11, 2005) - The 2004 SCCA Safety Symposium entitled ?Are You As Safe As You Think You Are?? is now available on DVD, courtesy of the SCCA Foundation in conjunction with Dodge Motorsports, Kumho Tire and Chicago Region SCCA.
A must have for all motorsports enthusiasts, the DVD contains more than five hours of crucial safety information on a variety of topics ranging from restraint systems, system components and crash injury data by some of the world?s foremost safety experts. The information was initially presented February 7 at the annual SCCA National Convention, which was held in Kansas City, Mo.
Among the topics and presenters on the DVD:
* Standards and How they are Determined? - Mr. Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute Safety Consultant
*Safety Restraint as a System? - Dr. John Melvin, Ph.D., President, Tandelta, Inc.
*Seats: Don't select on comfort alone? - Dr. John Melvin, Ph.D., President, Tandelta, Inc.
*Belts and Harnesses: What?s holding you back?? - Mr. Carl Schroth, General Manager, Schroth Safety Systems, GMBH
*Head and Neck Restraint: HANS®? - Dr. Bob Hubbard, Ph.D., HANS® Inventor and Professor of Mechanical Engineering, Michigan State University
The 2004 SCCA Safety Symposium DVD is a gift with a tax-deductible donation of $30 or more to the SCCA Foundation. Checks or money orders may be made payable to:
SCCA Foundation
P.O. Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
DVD's may also be obtained with a credit card by calling 1-800-770-2055. A contribution acknowledgement letter will be sent along with the DVD.
TOPEKA, Kan. (Jan. 11, 2005) - The 2004 SCCA Safety Symposium entitled ?Are You As Safe As You Think You Are?? is now available on DVD, courtesy of the SCCA Foundation in conjunction with Dodge Motorsports, Kumho Tire and Chicago Region SCCA.
A must have for all motorsports enthusiasts, the DVD contains more than five hours of crucial safety information on a variety of topics ranging from restraint systems, system components and crash injury data by some of the world?s foremost safety experts. The information was initially presented February 7 at the annual SCCA National Convention, which was held in Kansas City, Mo.
Among the topics and presenters on the DVD:
* Standards and How they are Determined? - Mr. Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute Safety Consultant
*Safety Restraint as a System? - Dr. John Melvin, Ph.D., President, Tandelta, Inc.
*Seats: Don't select on comfort alone? - Dr. John Melvin, Ph.D., President, Tandelta, Inc.
*Belts and Harnesses: What?s holding you back?? - Mr. Carl Schroth, General Manager, Schroth Safety Systems, GMBH
*Head and Neck Restraint: HANS®? - Dr. Bob Hubbard, Ph.D., HANS® Inventor and Professor of Mechanical Engineering, Michigan State University
The 2004 SCCA Safety Symposium DVD is a gift with a tax-deductible donation of $30 or more to the SCCA Foundation. Checks or money orders may be made payable to:
SCCA Foundation
P.O. Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
DVD's may also be obtained with a credit card by calling 1-800-770-2055. A contribution acknowledgement letter will be sent along with the DVD.
02-20-2005, 12:29 AM
#42
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John,
Thanks for making that clear (clear "again" ?) Sorry if I'm coming off sounding a bit dense here. I'm transitioning from dual-purpose car setup into a full track-only car setup (albeit driven to/from events, not trailered) and I just want to make sure I get things right/safe and spend only once for the right stuff.
I gotcha on the "Simpson solution," and the pics you posted make your point clear (grapes...LOL). So that sounds like the ticket for me...dual subs down through the lapbelt holes. And since I'm only 5'9" my seat comes pretty far forward which, by your description, may be advantageous in "cradling" my pelvis better than if I were six-plus footer. I appreciate all your time and advice on this...very helpful! Thanks!
Edward
Thanks for making that clear (clear "again" ?) Sorry if I'm coming off sounding a bit dense here. I'm transitioning from dual-purpose car setup into a full track-only car setup (albeit driven to/from events, not trailered) and I just want to make sure I get things right/safe and spend only once for the right stuff.
I gotcha on the "Simpson solution," and the pics you posted make your point clear (grapes...LOL). So that sounds like the ticket for me...dual subs down through the lapbelt holes. And since I'm only 5'9" my seat comes pretty far forward which, by your description, may be advantageous in "cradling" my pelvis better than if I were six-plus footer. I appreciate all your time and advice on this...very helpful! Thanks!
Edward
02-20-2005, 12:29 AM
#43
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Thanks George, John and all. This is an extremely important thread, and all of the information and dialog provided is very helpful. I'll be calling for that DVD on Monday.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-20-2005, 09:15 AM
#44
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I tihnk I pretty much agree with everything you're saying there, John.
An additional benefit to the Willans I've heard of is that you can easily adjust the sub straps with a pull-up arrangement. But then again they are a lot more than my RJS 6-points...
An additional benefit to the Willans I've heard of is that you can easily adjust the sub straps with a pull-up arrangement. But then again they are a lot more than my RJS 6-points...
02-20-2005, 10:04 AM
#45
Thanks John - great posts and you've managed to keep this important thread on point.
After talking to our safety chairman, who is a professional in aviation safety during the day, and has just attended a seminar given by John Melvin & others, I'm feeling good about the 6 point Schroth thats going into my car. The Schroth is a 'wide gap' style designed to be installed in cradle configuration. Was planning to install the sub straps in a normal 'forward through the sub hole' configuration, but am now giuded by the wisdom and test evidence in support of the cradle setup.
After talking to our safety chairman, who is a professional in aviation safety during the day, and has just attended a seminar given by John Melvin & others, I'm feeling good about the 6 point Schroth thats going into my car. The Schroth is a 'wide gap' style designed to be installed in cradle configuration. Was planning to install the sub straps in a normal 'forward through the sub hole' configuration, but am now giuded by the wisdom and test evidence in support of the cradle setup.