John Brown

It would be useful to know the configuration used in testing for the various devices. As Geo and others have said, it's generally wise to follow the guidance of the pros (Gideon/Melvin et al). However, I would much prefer to know specific answers to the configuration questions brought up in this thread.

For example, just because G&M strongly recommend 6+ pt, it's not convincing if installed through the single central hole; unless they have tested that configuration? Likewise, looping 6pt subs under the legs and back through to attach to the same hardpoint as the lap appears to me possibly to enhance in one area and detract in another?

Geo

John, I agree completely. Unfortunately we as amateurs are not getting all the information we need to make the best decisions and thus we often have to fill in the blanks as best we can and make our own best guesses. I'm hoping the DVD I posted about will provide some much more in-depth information that what has previously been made available. If not, we (amateur racers in various organizations) should put pressure on our organizations to report in greater detail the results of safety testing or make what reports that exist available. It's really clear Dr. Melvin believes the 6-pt is superior, but here we have a well educated group that has a variety of views because we all have to fill in too many blanks IMHO.

fatbillybob

You know if people are worried about the 5pt sub hole being used for the 6 point as an extra stress on the seat, why not just go to 7 point? Isn't 7 point like the 5 pt with the dual sub as a parachute anchored at the lap belt harnesses and either coming into the seat via the lap belt holes or dedicated holes in the few 6pt harness seats? By the way, Does this list have an opinion as to the best 6 or 7 point that causes minimum damage to your privates? I think that would be the dual sub hooking through lap belt holes, then the "T" style with parachute, then any kind coming up through the 5pt seat bottom sub hole. Which manufacturers like the first kind?

ltc

APKhaos,
Which Schroth harnesses are you installing?
Are they an 'F' version?

Edward

OK, So I've been looking around the web for 6 point belts with the "wider" sub belt arrangement (like John's posted pic of the blue hanrness), and NOT of the simple T-bar or V sub-belt configuration. Found that Simpson's ("Platinum" harness) and Crow have the most reasonably priced camlock units with this wide sub-belt configuration (for "comfort" you know ).

Question: It is not clear to me from their pics how one straps in. From what I can tell, the sub seems to wrap through two D rings (one on the end of each terminating part of the lap's end) across both lap belt ends. So if this sub belt is a continuous piece, how do you strap in if the camlock part is fixed to one of the lapbelts (that's how my 5-point Sabelt is ...camlock is fixed to the right lap belt), and an unbroken sub passes through D rings of both the left and right halves of the lapbelt. I know there's gotta be something easy that I'm missing here. Anyone own or seen one of these types know. I'm looking to pick up such a 6-pt belt and hate to buy blind based on an internet pic alone. Thanks!



Edward

Geo

I don't see why one 6-pt is theoretically better than the other. I have not ready anything to this effect other than marketing from manufacturers. It seems to me that all styles will prevent the shifting of the pelvis that leads to the chest injuries.

Anybody have anything on this. Vaughn, did Dr. Melvin have anything to say about the style of 6-pt he recommends?

APKhaos

Lewis,
Its a Profi III ASM model - not the F variant.

SundayDriver

I read a summary of a presentation where the safety experts said exactly which belts they feel were the only ones worth using. All were the parachute harness style (like the Simpson shown above). This style, which wraps around the thigh is very different mechanically than the Y substrap style.

SundayDriver

I use similar belts. You start by buckling the lap belts. Then thread one sub strap through the D ring and secure it with the same side shoulder harness. In my case, I also secure the arm restraint at the same time. It is a matter of sucking it in - big time and carefully threading everything. Repeat for the second side. It is much easier if you have a crew member help you pull and tug.

RedlineMan

Geo, et al;

General offerings: Simpson says;

In case anyone thought that I had been flatulating in this thread, here it is in somebody else's words. In regard to 6-point systems, Simpson says;Will any 6-point take up slack and stop body motion sooner? Yes. A "V" type sub may be nearly as effective, but it has two dissadvantages as I see it. 1st it is going to trash your gonads! 2nd, it is essentially central in the space between your thighs. The wide-terminated, non-clip-in type of 6-point (as pictured twice in my posts) will rest on either side of "the kids," will have a wider coverage area - or footprint if you will - and should therefore offer more stability, retention, and load disipation, and will be much easier to secure snuggly and more comfortably to the inside of the thighs in a static state, decreasing the amount of time that it takes for full tensioning of the system to occur.

The choice between getting bruises to my groin and inner thighs or having my onions diced is not one that requires a lot of thought on my part!

924RACR

Geo - looks like Mark was taking better notes than I was in this respect (or the coverage has gotten better). IIRC the first time I heard the talk (from Melvin) I think Willans was the only company (at least that I was aware of) making the wide 6-pt setup. I'm glad to see there are more choices now. All this discussion has me thinking maybe next time my belts are up I'll pony up for some new more comfortable belts. Never had a comfort issue with my traditional 6-point mil-spec latch RJS belts, but maybe it is time to upgrade the belts to the same level as my other gear...

SundayDriver

Some belt/car combos give rise to a new meaning for 'Cup Car'.

Geo

Thanks for the info Mark.

John, I had previously read the stuff on the Simpon site (or in an ad, I can't remember), but I'm not terribly swayed by ads and marketing. If I were, I would think all H&N restraints were better than all the rest.

I kept reading about Dr. Melvin being very high on the 6 pt harnesses, but I had never read anything about one style vs. another. Absolutely my mistake for assuming any 6 pt would do the job properly. I wish the experts would be more specific when there are choices to be made. I'd be PISSED to have bought a 6 pt only to find I bought the wrong style 6 pt.

It's wonderful that there is so much safety testing and R&D going on these days. But the problem is, the information is absolutely NOT being disseminated well and the rest of us fill in the blanks the best we can. I try hard not to do that but I did this time through omission. Just goes to show that's just as dangerous. For sure I'll be ordering the DVD and I hope it will not only be enlightening, but provide more specific answers than have been generally available.

Anybody know what is available from SAE and if it's worthwhile to order (print or other media)?

Edward

Mark,

Thanks for the reply! But if I understand your description correctly, you "thread" the sub belt through the D-rings... Wait a minute...Aren't the ends of the sub belt already bolted to the car? Gotta be something easy I'm missing here. Forgive me if I just don't "get it" (I'll probably just have to go see one for myself). But if only for my own pesky curiosity, I'd like to know how one straps into this type of belt before I go order one.
If anyone can clarify, that'd help. Great thread, BTW. I know I'm picking up a lot.


Edward

RedlineMan

Now G, I'm ABSOLUTELY WITH YOU on that point. I too am very frustrated that it is we - the end user - who must scratch a claw in this corner and that to find various scraps of information that SHOULD be COLLATED and PUBLISHED for EVERYONE'S benefit. I recently tried numerous times by e-mail to get Simpson to offer me some of their results from sub testing, and got no response.

Edward -

If my guess is right (and that's all it is), the end of the sub has a loop sewn in it. This end is threaded through the metal positioning loop on the lap belt, and then the end-tab for each shoulder strap picks up the loop on the end of its sub strap. That's my guess for the Rotary type. I just can't figure how the Latch & Link style Simpson works at all.

Suffice to say that it likely makes getting strapped in much more of an ordeal, as Mark eludes to. Safety often comes at a price.