Full Face Helmets Bad for Air Bag cars?
11-18-2004, 11:00 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Full Face Helmets Bad for Air Bag cars?
I just saw this on an SCCA autocross forum.
Hmm...
Porsche's have had airbags since 87 or 88 time frame on some cars with all some time in the early 90's.
I wonder if PCA has seen any issues.
Interesting?
DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055.
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055.
Porsche's have had airbags since 87 or 88 time frame on some cars with all some time in the early 90's.
I wonder if PCA has seen any issues.
Interesting?
11-18-2004, 11:06 AM
#2
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An airbag hitting your face can also cause issues! Let's hope that they don't make everyone take out their airbags. This would be overkill for Solo 2.
11-18-2004, 11:06 AM
#3
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I thought that was the purpose of a full face helmet...to protect the face and chin area. It is hard to evaluate Gramling's statement without a full analysis, but it certainly does not make sense. I cannot image that the airbag could deploy with enough force to damage the helmet. Maybe in some instances it is rotating the helmet downward and the helmet is making contact with the chin?
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
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Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
11-18-2004, 11:58 AM
#4
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i would rather be wearing my full face helmet and suffer an injured jaw rather than be wearing an open face helmet and have my jaw torn apart when it hits the steering wheel
11-18-2004, 01:13 PM
#6
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Geoffry - I'm with you. I always worry that the damn things will deploy when they shouldn't - I had one incident with them already in a 993! I don't understand the problem described in the original post. I wonder how one could hit the airbag hard when you're belted in? For a closed cah prefer and open face helmet for comfort (cooler) and the ability to communicate with the outside world. I have a FF for my odd foray into open wheelers and such and I find the peripheral vision and situational awareness better with my Simpson Open Face than my Bell Full Face but YMMV.
Rgds,
Rgds,
11-18-2004, 01:34 PM
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Thoughts?
- Persons of short stature have ALWAYS been more vulnerable to air bag injuries, and should consider this. Then consider whether they want to be hit in the face by the bag - which is soft but can still do damage - , or the helmet being hit by the bag and jammed into their face, which is "harder" but also will not allow direct contact. I'd take my chances with the FF helmet, thank you.
- If you have an airbag deployment at an autocross, you probably deserve to have your jaw broken, along with the course designer. Incidents with stuck throttles and other such "mechanicals" notwithstanding.
- If you are using OE 3-point belts, this may be a concern. Seems it would be far less so with harnesses.
- If this gets anywhere beyond an advisory warning of the potential implications, it will be a travesty!
- Persons of short stature have ALWAYS been more vulnerable to air bag injuries, and should consider this. Then consider whether they want to be hit in the face by the bag - which is soft but can still do damage - , or the helmet being hit by the bag and jammed into their face, which is "harder" but also will not allow direct contact. I'd take my chances with the FF helmet, thank you.
- If you have an airbag deployment at an autocross, you probably deserve to have your jaw broken, along with the course designer. Incidents with stuck throttles and other such "mechanicals" notwithstanding.
- If you are using OE 3-point belts, this may be a concern. Seems it would be far less so with harnesses.
- If this gets anywhere beyond an advisory warning of the potential implications, it will be a travesty!
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11-18-2004, 01:45 PM
#8
Race Director
Guys, I think this is only an issue for the cone huggers. In SCCA (the organization issuing the memo) all cars in club racing must deactivate and/or remove the airbag. Non-issue for club racing. Now PCA, BMWCCA, and others is another issue I guess if they don't require removal of the airbag.
11-18-2004, 01:47 PM
#9
Race Director
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Geoffry - I'm with you. I always worry that the damn things will deploy when they shouldn't - I had one incident with them already in a 993! I don't understand the problem described in the original post. I wonder how one could hit the airbag hard when you're belted in? For a closed cah prefer and open face helmet for comfort (cooler) and the ability to communicate with the outside world. I have a FF for my odd foray into open wheelers and such and I find the peripheral vision and situational awareness better with my Simpson Open Face than my Bell Full Face but YMMV.
Rgds,
Rgds,
I would never wear an open face helmet.
11-18-2004, 02:01 PM
#10
A. Anytime you are in a crash there is a "risk of being hurt"
B. A FF helmet being struck by an airbag at any angle has to be better than being struck by anyting else at the same angle.
C. This sounds like a "CYA" kind of announcement... as in "C... I told YA so..." sheesh
D. There is always a grey area about how different safety systems work together... (see numerous and long past threads...) say you hit something, and the 5-points stop you.... your body is relatively stationary then the air bag goes off and hits you in the head driving it sharply back... this sounds like A VERY BAD THING... but I don't understand how a full face helmet makes a difference unless the impact causes a torque effect on your neck because the helmet acts as a lever...
Personally I'll take my chances with 5-points and a HANS... but in a '79, I don;t have to make the decision anyway.
B. A FF helmet being struck by an airbag at any angle has to be better than being struck by anyting else at the same angle.
C. This sounds like a "CYA" kind of announcement... as in "C... I told YA so..." sheesh
D. There is always a grey area about how different safety systems work together... (see numerous and long past threads...) say you hit something, and the 5-points stop you.... your body is relatively stationary then the air bag goes off and hits you in the head driving it sharply back... this sounds like A VERY BAD THING... but I don't understand how a full face helmet makes a difference unless the impact causes a torque effect on your neck because the helmet acts as a lever...
Personally I'll take my chances with 5-points and a HANS... but in a '79, I don;t have to make the decision anyway.
11-18-2004, 02:17 PM
#11
Race Director
Since the ruling on belts (due to SFI changes in certs) I've become very cynical of safety changes not backed up with significant testing. I still think the belt rule is pure BS marketing to sell more belts.
11-18-2004, 02:46 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
- If you have an airbag deployment at an autocross, you probably deserve to have your jaw broken, along with the course designer.
That was great John...
Personally I am confused as everybody else. If your helmet fits you properly, I can't see how this can hurt you when the airbag deploys. I dunno....
Woo...
-Patrick
11-18-2004, 03:01 PM
#13
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During my wreck in the Kink at Road America, my airbag deployed into my FF helmet. It did break my visor, but I suffered no other injuries. Common sense would certainly suggest that a FF helmet would offer more protection than an open-faced unit.
The worst part of the airbag was the noxious fumes from the propellant. I was coughing for 2 days. A price worth paying, IMO.
The worst part of the airbag was the noxious fumes from the propellant. I was coughing for 2 days. A price worth paying, IMO.
Last edited by Anir; 11-18-2004 at 06:39 PM.
11-18-2004, 05:13 PM
#14
Reminds me of an old joke about an Irishman witnessing a car accident... "Ahhh ...'tis a mercy that wall was there or the poor bugger would have gone off the road entirely..."
(I know.... now I'll get flamed by 100 Irish people and a couple of confused drunk Welshmen...)
(I know.... now I'll get flamed by 100 Irish people and a couple of confused drunk Welshmen...)
11-18-2004, 08:27 PM
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Hey Guys;
To restate what I said before (I thought), I am quite sure that the thinking and worry is that the bag hitting you is far softer than a relatively hard FF helmet being smashed into your face.
Like I said, I'll still take my chances with the FF helmet.
To restate what I said before (I thought), I am quite sure that the thinking and worry is that the bag hitting you is far softer than a relatively hard FF helmet being smashed into your face.
Like I said, I'll still take my chances with the FF helmet.