RedlineMan

As promised, Gents;

Here is my review of two very worthy products, post install. These are made by Ultrashield out of Texas www.ultrashieldrace.com and I installed one of each in an E-class 944T.

This is the Road Race SS, I installed for the driver. It is made of .100" 5052 alloy with a .250 exoskeleton in the upper shoulder area, and a formed/welded beam reinforcement around the rib area. They are available in both 20 degree, and crucially 10 degree models. $1065 with cover, including custom build to spec. 27lbs +/-.

The current product differs slightly from what you see here. Both seats had a halo similar to the Lightweight pictured below.

I bolted it directly to the floor mounts, and can report that this seat is EXTREMELY stiff, well made, and comfortable. The full retention shoulder bolsters work very well. A little bit of padding here and there was all we needed to fit the driver perfectly. The halo is well made and positioned. It extends farther out on the right than the left for increased side retention.

This is the Lightweight Halo model. It can be ordered in either .80 or .100 5052 alloy. It is only reinforced in the rib area with a formed/welded beam, and the shoulder bolsters are wings instead of full containment. They can be had in either "rib crusher" (pictured) or road race torso styles. About 19lbs for the road race .80 version I used for the passenger seat.

Although this seat lacks the exoskeletal reinforcement of the SS, and the fact that I mounted this seat on sliders, it still seems fairly stiff, and is noticeably lighter weight than the rugged SS.

The only thing I was less than pleased with was the hole cutting quality. The punched and formed lightening holes on both, and what appeared to be flame or plasma cut reliefs in the exoskeleton on the SS were rather rough edged and crude. This is subjective, I suppose. Dirt trackers likely wouldn't care. For Porsches, I expect a little better, and I wasn't thrilled with the thought of slicing myself or the cover on them during install.

Having said that, they function extremely well, and Ultrashiled was a pleasure to deal with. I had my seats custom built and delivered to my local speed shop in less than a week. I have no connection with the company whatever, I just think they have a good product that is very worthy of consideration. I wish I knew about them before I went through Hell trying to get my Kirkey RR Deluxe installed; it being at best a very dissappointing compromise. These seats fit every spatial and alignment parameter perfectly.

mitch236

What do you mean by crucially?

Dale Gribble

so much for visibility...bit of a blind spot don't ya think?

RedlineMan

Hey;

I have previously only had experience with Kirkey seats, and their Road Race seats are available only in 20 degree layback. Having tried mightily to get a good install in both my car, and in a 996, and having both come out dissappointingly compromised, I can say that 20 degree seats do not work in sedans.

The key is the seat angle as it pertains to steering reach. If you look at every car I can think of, the mount points in the floor are declined to the rear, fronts being higher than the rears. You will also note that most people will have the seat back set at an angle not very far at all from perpendicular to the seat base. It is the mount angle of the base that creates most of the layback.

Also, a most important aspect that many people overlook is the decline in the seat base that helps hold the driver in the seat in the event of a forward impact. This is vitally important in limiting the submarine effect.

When you combine the declined mount point angle with a layback seat, you get a Barcalounger! Most people will initially think that a fairly outstretched reach is acceptable, until they try a rough track, a few track days in succession, or a stiff steering car. Then they realize they do not have enough leverage on the wheel.

Most times a seat will be mounted very close to the floor for anyone over 5'9". Because of the existing decline in the floor mount points, it is usually not possible to get the front of the seat any lower. To improve reach, you have to raise the rear of the seat up, using the front mount points as the pivot. When you raise the rear of the seat you not only lose usually precious headroom, but you move the seat base angle toward horizontal, and decrease thigh support, but more importantly, front impact rention.

I worked for MANY LONG HOURS to try and effect a reasonable compromise installing Kirkey RR Deluxe seats in a 996, and am NOT pleased with the result. I had to modify the seat, and create a custom mount system in my floor in my 944, and the result, while comfortable, does not provide any torso retention decline in the seat base. To get headroom and leg length correct, I had to fabricate a 2" extension on top of my quick release for my steering wheel!

Getting seats in a car, and getting them perfect are two different things. Usually your best efforts require at least moderate tweaking after they are used in anger for the first time. I installed both the Ultrashield seats in a customer 944T race car in a relative snap and the results are ergonimically outstanding. None of the issues brought to to light by the Kirkey design showed up with the 10 degree.

So, does that clarify?

RedlineMan

Hey DeadEye;

You obviously are not familiar with Halo seats and how they are properly fitted. The top of the halo should be at the tip of your nose. Just like glitch on your windshield, if you stare at it, it bothers you. In practice, when you get busy you do not even notice them at all. You're looking right over them (or through them in the case of windshield splidge).

This brings up another advantage of the easily tailored alloy seats, and the Ultrashield custom build option. You have the opportunity to have them made to fit your unique parameters, instead of having to live with inequities with a plastic seat.

JCP911S

Comparing the RR SS to the Lightweight I have a couple conclusions/observations.

First, the shoulder bracing on the SS is much more square to the shoulders than the "wings" on the Lightweight.... I can't help thinking that this provides much more effective containment of the shoulders with less chance of sliding out of the belts or having a disclocation injury

Second, the rib bolsters on the lighweight are more pronounced... the SS appears to have the containment focused much more tightly on the hips.... ribs are pretty fragile... i would think the containment should be focused on the shoulders and hips.

ltc

John,
Excellent post (as always).

This brings up an interesting point regarding 10/20 HANS devices and your discussion of seatback angles:

"For comfort the HANS® should match the angle of your seatback.
MODEL 10 - EXTREME UPRIGHT SEAT
If you sit very upright and cannot get comfortable with a Model 20 try this Model.
MODEL 20 - UPRIGHT SEAT
NASCAR, Busch, Sprint, Midget, Quarter Midget, Drag, Modified, Bandalero etc.
Sportscars including Porsche, BMW, Corvette, Honda, Viper etc.
Marine applications including UIM and Drag Boats."

Most of the HANS devices I've seen have been the 20 type. I'm wondering if this is entirely due to the seat or the composite seat/install final position. I should probably go home tonight and get a protractor and measure my installed seatback angle.

RedlineMan

Hey JCP;

- As I stated, the Road Race SS is a CONTAINMENT seat, while the Lightweight simply has wings. I'm pretty confident that Ultrashield could build you any hybrid you wanted.

- The Lightweight is available in either road race or "rib crusher" versions.

You might be inclined to think that the rib crusher style would do just that, but testing has shown that this design is actually quite adept as controling body travel and dissipating energy. The rib cage is a fairly resilient structure, and also far less delicate than other parts of the body, like the spine, neck, head, etc. Some testers have endorsed this style over traditional road racing flat side bolsters for increased retention.

The downside is that they are much harder to get in and out of. You have to go in ahead and slide back into them, instead of dropping in from above.

RedlineMan

Hey Lew;

What you get with the 10 degree seat and the declined angle of the floor mounts is a seat that you can actually GET to mount at 10-20 degrees and still get all other parameters to work. With the same declined mount points, and a 20 degree seat, you're in the back seat somewhere with a good forward view of the dashboard!

One thing that people also forget to do is, when they get their HANS and belts on, to then lean their head back and push the HANS headrest back into the seat with their helmet. This usually puts the tips of the HANS wings at the proper height on your chest, and properly "tensions" the retention straps.

RPG951S

John,

Can you speak to the actually process of mounting the Ultrashields? I understand that Kirkey pretty much had bolt-in floor 'mounts' that would fit the Kirkey RRD's to P-car seat pattern. What did you have to do to mount the Ultrashields? (I'm just about to pull the trigger and buy a pair of Ultrashield Deluxe RR seats)

RedlineMan

Hey Raag;

When it comes to alloy seats, you are pretty much on your own. There is no real provision to adapt them to ANYTHING. They are most commonly used in oval track cars, and it is assumed that everything will be fabricated anyway. They are not really built by or for "sedan people."

Some of these guys may indeed offer some sort of side brackets that would interface between the seat and the floor mounting holes. The problem there is that these usually rob too much headroom for anyone over 5'9". You may also be able to find some hardware from sports car manufacturers like Momo or Sparco that you might find useful in mating the roundy round seats to a sedan. I always end up fabricating everything myself.

Most times I use sliders on DE cars. This presents a whole range of problems, but I have a pretty good system worked out for getting them in right. For the latest Ultrashield install, I used a similar format to solid bolt the driver's seat to the floor, and used OE sliders for the passenger seat.

Incidentally, a 17" alloy seat is almost exactly the width of a pair of sliders bolted to the floor of a 944. Makes life easy for a side flange mount like I use for most of my installs (below). The side plate mount is best because it loads all mounting materials (side plates, bolts, seat) in shear.

Dale Gribble

what advantages do halo seats offer over normal racing seats (momo seats, sparco's make out of carbon fiber or whatever)? are they lighter? safer? or just hold u in place much much more?

RedlineMan

Hey, um... Eye;

Halo seats are available in either plastic or alloy. The Sparco Circuit, Competition Touring (what I call "window seats"), or the Racetech 4009/9009/9109 are Halo designs. The halo simply provides more sideways support for the head in offset crashes. They also tend to work well in conjunction with a head & neck restraint by deflecting the side forces forward again, where most H&N systems can absorb them better. You will note significant halos in all NASCAR stockers these days.

It is highly debateable in my mind whether halos are a good idea without also having sufficient upper body containment to parallel this head retention. Just as much damage might likely be done by holding the head in place and letting the torso fly sideways! I tend to think that I do not want head retention without an equal amount of torso containment.

This stuff AINT simple!

GUMBALL

Redlineman:
What most seat manufacturers do not seem to understand, is that the strongest part of your upper body is your shoulders, and not your ribcage.
The Roadrace SS seems to be a seat that finally addresses this with the contoured shoulder "wings".

For many years, most of the cars that I drove used the factory Porsche/Recaro seat, which had very large and pronounced shoulder wings.
I found this seat to be MUCH more comfortable and supportive than any other seat on the market because it held you by the shoulders, and not by the ribcage.
The SS appears to be an improvement on that.

Good post, and thank-you for the info !

RedlineMan

Hey Gummy;

I think the ultimate seat might just be one with super high thigh walls, densely padded rib crushers right up to your pecs, and big, flat, long, longitudinal shoulder containment fences, even bigger than the Ultrashield RR/SS. I betcha they would build me one!

I work my butt off trying to come up with the best solutions for my customers. I hope this info helps my Rennlist friends too !!