924RACR

Ah, common misconception (and perhaps the root of the problem?).

To misappropriate and paraphrase (badly) Dr. (Indiana) Jones:
"Engineering is the study of facts. If it's Truth you're after, Dr. H's Philosophy class is down the hall."

But I prefer to live by the words of Diamond Dave (Lee Roth):
"It's not what you do, it's how good you look doing it!"

Geo

I don't. I agree with Jack. The problem with someone like CC is he spews so much that he occasionally has a good, true, and valid point. Those who would defend him point to those. The rest will fertilize your lawn.

See, here's the problem... If all you have is CC spreading fertilizer, some newbie who actually searches (kind of like the Loch Ness Monster, but hey, there's always hope, right?) will read all the fertilizer with nobody disputing it and start to think it's correct. Many try to correct inaccuracies for this reason and to clear things up for those playing along at home (lurking).

Geo

I don't so much have a problem with him having discussions and debates about issues, even with limited track time. Everyone should want to learn IMHO. However, I do have a problem with his attitude that he's right and won't consider other points of view. There are a lot of experienced and smart people here. To tell these people they are dead wrong and not listen to them is an annoying waste of time. I've given up on trying to discuss, debate, argue with CC. He's not interested in anything that doesn't support his view. That's a waste of time.

Oh, and again, I completely agree with Jack.

Robert Henriksen

Reminds me of the pessimist/optimist joke. Two little boys are sent alone into two identical rooms, both empty except for a huge pile of manure.

An hour later, one little boy is found sitting on the floor in his room, crying & complaining about the smell.

The other little boy is delightedly standing in the middle of the pile of manure, digging through it & throwing clumps around the room. When asked what the heck he was doing, he exclaimed, "With all this ****, there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!!!"

Skip Wolfe

I agree that their are a lot of inaccuracies that are spread around in general on the list. And I agree that a newbie may have a tough time separating truth from fiction. But I don't define a thread as good or bad on how this affects newbies. We were all newbies at one time or another both on the list and on the track and we learned to survive, so I'm not going to loose sleep over how the writings on the Rennlist may or may not steer a newbie down the path of evil gsums.

What I like about these controversial threads is that it get guys like Chris C, Sundaydriver, DJ, and many others., wound up and when they get wound up I learn stuff. While the "what tire pressure" threads are perfectly acceptable here on the Rennlist, I enjoy some in depth discussions on the theory of driving, etc. And there are some guys on the list that have an immense amount of experience and skill that I can strongly benefit from. Unfortunately the good in depth threads are sometimes few and far between. So when someone like CC comes along and challenges conventional wisdom, you can't just say the thread is drivel because CC doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. You need to look at the whole thread and say that yes there are some who are spouting drivel, but there are others who are spouting gospel, and while it takes effort to seperate the good from the bad, if your not learning something, your are either already at the top of your game, or your not paying attention.

Just my opinion. You won't hurt my feeling if you disagree.

RJay

Powerful liters
might cause newbie deflection
not just one cc

Open free exchange
provokes, stimulates much thought
Beware the price paid

My education
obtained from many sources
result: lower times

Glen

Congratulations Chris, very well done indeed.

http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/2004...SprintRace.htm

Sincerely,

Jimbo951

Gingerman flat track
Course is engineering test
Line has no value

RedlineMan

Hmmm...

Anyone who is upset that "threads like this" have no value, and are terrific wastes of bandwidth should look in the mirror and get pissed at the dope that read through them all.

Anyone who relishes threads like this as opportunites to take pot shots at people is lacking a life, and probably in equipment as well.

Anyone who feels threads like this are UN-informative to the point of being a disservice? Hopefully, those who you are fretting for will be smart enough to seek guidance and counsel from a wise instructor who will summarily dissabuse them of the hysterical notions and theoretical falacies they may have absorbed here, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS!

Read, think, deliberate, apply what passes muster. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't . You have to try, to know. Knowledge is power, boys, and sometimes knowing what NOT to do is of MORE ultimate importance, and arguably of greater service.

You may know what you know, and know it well, but if you are never challenged to think, you may never know all you might have.

Professor Helmüt Tester

1000 monkeys,
each one with a typewriter.
How long would it take ?

Bob Rouleau

Hmm as one who has been called all sorts of nasty things by CC, I'll repeat what I posted before. CC is controversial and IMO somewhat overbearing. Nothwithstanding his "ways" he has provoked some interesting discussions about driving techniques. His condescending tone annoys me, but, the threads he has precipitated have been stimulating.

Rgds (includes CC)


Regards

smokey

I'm with Bob. CC's needs an attitude adjustment feedback loop on occasion, but the discussions have generally been informative, especially the difference in line between a powerful car and one with less power. The difference in line is explained by (pardon me for mentioning it) the friction circle. CC will come to an awakening if he continues in this sport, and will discover whether he is the second coming of Jackie Stewart - or not. I look forward to that awakening, and the threads that follow - assuming he survives. This after seeing three major wrecks at Mosport this weekend.

M758

Guys,
I right behind Chris C and a few others on this.

These discussions have done quite a bit to bring up racing/drivng theory on this forum. Lots of good information and entertainment.

Of course is all of what Color says true and advice to be follow? No not at all, but he has sparked some very good discussions.

Alot of us have been making alot of posts about things that we have had to think about. Being able to explain your concepts and points and share those with other is very important. It forces you as driver to think about what you are doing and ask "why is it right?" Then you must explain and defend your position. I trully believe that in the relm of driving this is no "perfect" way. As much as we try to make it that way. Even in DE the line and techniques are "Guidelines" not really rules. Sure we stress those to new folks, but as these guys learn they realize you have to do what works for you out there. There are all kinds of differences that fast guys do. These discussion have gotten to interesting higher level advanced topics. This is a place were strict DE rules don't apply. Here creativety and exploration can be rewarded by a new standard in lap times. No "fast driver" follows the DE line, either with car placement to technique. They had sligth variations that work for their car, their set-up, and their skill level. We have been discussinng things like this.

This really has been in my mind a great wealth of information. The only issue is that pure novice needs to be very carefull using this information. The best thing they can take away is to listen to their instructor. I think most of us have made that point. Intermediate drivers can use these discussion as though provokers for their own driving. It allows the out of the DE box thinking that will make them in to fast drivers. It can take a fast driver and give him ideas to get another few tenths out there on the track.

Debate is healthy and good. Sure there have been some useless comments, but one MUST always temper any advice they find on the internet with their own good judgement.

JCP911S

As one guilty of CC posting myself, I can only say that by now, anybody that enters a CC thread should know what to expect by now... (possibly because the exact same point is argued in each one).. so enter at your own risk and don't complain about what you find.

Still, it is like a bad automobile accident... horrible, disturbing... but like many others... drawn by some freakish morbid fascination, and even knowing what I will see... I can't stop myself from looking.

Truth is shimmering shadow
behind shadow immovable certainty
our own opinions

Z-man

Of what does he speak?
Of driving, or poetry?
Methinks it's of both!

Without CC, we wouldn't have this (shameless plug):
M. Schumacker's G-sum graph:

Here's Color Change's G-sum graph:

And here's my G-sum graph:


The man is an inspriation for us all!
-Z-man.