Gingerman Track Video 996tt
08-14-2004, 02:13 AM
#121
Race Director
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
M758 (may I call you M for short?),
Brainfarts are a common problem. There are many theories about the cause. Beer can cause them as can distractions like pit babes and grid girls. No matter what the cause, DAS-Pirin is the cure. Yes, DAS-Pirin is doctor recommended to relieve the suffering caused by brainfarts. Endorsed by engineers, DAS-Pirin has been shown by at least one engineer to cure bad driving, improve smoothness and prevent recurrence of brainfarts. Ask for it at your neighborhood track today!
Brainfarts are a common problem. There are many theories about the cause. Beer can cause them as can distractions like pit babes and grid girls. No matter what the cause, DAS-Pirin is the cure. Yes, DAS-Pirin is doctor recommended to relieve the suffering caused by brainfarts. Endorsed by engineers, DAS-Pirin has been shown by at least one engineer to cure bad driving, improve smoothness and prevent recurrence of brainfarts. Ask for it at your neighborhood track today!
Cool Thanks Bob
Your the MAN! 
08-14-2004, 02:34 AM
#123
Race Director
Originally Posted by Premier Motorsp
Why is Colorchange getting so much flak? He is being scientific and learning in a way that suits him. What is the problem with this?
In skimming through this thread I see he has a few things dead correct. The most important is that the concept of slow-in fast-out is dead wrong. Usually it takes about 10 years before you figure out how wrong this advice is.
I think the G-sum IS a great way to evaluate a driver. It shows, more clearly and easier than anything else, whether the driver is on the limit or not. The failing of relying on G-sum is that the line choice is still a question, and Colorchange readily admits that.
From watching the video, I would first advise Colorchange to take his car to a racetrack and stop wasting time and money at Gingerman. That Turbo is a bull in a chinashop there. Secondly, most of the apexes and turn ins are too late. Good beginner DE technique, but it sacrifices all the entry speed. Thirdly, brake earlier. Since the brakes are not up to 100% use, why not ease off them, take the small hit in lap time, but have functioning brakes with which to perfect the trail braking technique. The decel from turn-in to apex is what separates the men from the boys, so practicing this is critical.
Also, get some Michelin PSC's. Racing on street rubber is just frustration.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
In skimming through this thread I see he has a few things dead correct. The most important is that the concept of slow-in fast-out is dead wrong. Usually it takes about 10 years before you figure out how wrong this advice is.
I think the G-sum IS a great way to evaluate a driver. It shows, more clearly and easier than anything else, whether the driver is on the limit or not. The failing of relying on G-sum is that the line choice is still a question, and Colorchange readily admits that.
From watching the video, I would first advise Colorchange to take his car to a racetrack and stop wasting time and money at Gingerman. That Turbo is a bull in a chinashop there. Secondly, most of the apexes and turn ins are too late. Good beginner DE technique, but it sacrifices all the entry speed. Thirdly, brake earlier. Since the brakes are not up to 100% use, why not ease off them, take the small hit in lap time, but have functioning brakes with which to perfect the trail braking technique. The decel from turn-in to apex is what separates the men from the boys, so practicing this is critical.
Also, get some Michelin PSC's. Racing on street rubber is just frustration.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
The reason Colorchange is taking flak is mostly due to his seeming inabilty to want to listen to advice. Personally I would agree in so much as DAS is great tool to determine any number of things on the track. I know driver's of your caliber can make great use to data like this to reduce lap times. I do not however feel that DAS is subsititute for learning the basics related car feel and smoothness.
I think that any driver that has expectation of doing more that just "lapping" needs to understand smoothness and how to feel what a car is doing on the track. To me these are the very basics. If a driver cannot feel how the car is responding, if they cannot feel understeer and oversteer, if they cannot sense impending brake lock-up, or how the car's weight transfers when you apply or remove power then that driver will never able to make use of the Data that his system has aquired. Once you have reached a plateau of speed and consistancy DAS can help you go further.
It is my feeling that colorchange can learn quite a bit more by taking one or various instructors out in the car with him. I think their feedback can be essential so that he may calibrate his in-car butt sensor. Once he has the calibration down and good solid smoothness he can use the DAS to help fine tune his driving. I don't believe you can be effective with DAS alone. Your butt sensor must also provide feedback. One of the odd things is that when attempting to get the very last ounce of speed one's butt sensor may not be accurate. This were DAS is worth is weight in gold. It can clearly and objectivly show what the driver cannot interpret.
Chris with respect to slow in fast out. I have found that this works better in slow tight corners. In fast corners it is fast in fast out. Of course with 131 rhwp fast in aint that fast.
And as you have told me, Corner entry is where drivers make time and win races. On brakes.... I have found that many students brake late and very hard. In many cases "out braking themselves" to the point were the miss apexes. Braking sooner and slightly more gradualy is often better. It does a few nice things. 1) Less stress in braking zone allows you to prepare more for turn-in and corner entry. 2) Braking earlier also allows you to turn in a bit earlier. This is nice not in such that it you early apex, but often late brakers artifically make the corner tighter than required. Braking sooner opens up the possbility of making a larger radius turn. 3) Lighter braking also allows the car to be moving a bit faster. Here is where the fast in fast out methodolgy can be used. I have learned in my 944-spec car to use as absolutly little brakes as possble. Any more slowing than needed costs me dearly. This is also where a low hp car realy helps. 4) less brake wear.
08-14-2004, 02:37 AM
#124
Haiku Grasshoppa
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Conserve energy
Wit is found in brevity
Simple ain't easy.
My 1,000th post.
You should feel honored by this...
Wasted on this thread.
Wit is found in brevity
Simple ain't easy.
My 1,000th post.
You should feel honored by this...
Wasted on this thread.
08-14-2004, 10:03 AM
#128
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Chris -
Well said. CC always provokes lively discussions - the size of this thread is an example. There was a time when he was something of a bull in a china shop himself. For example, he espoused trail braking using ABS all the way to the apex as the correct way to enter any turn. When someone posted an article by Paul Gentilozzi on how to drive a CUP car which contradicted his theory, he dismissed Paul as a bad driver.
That's changed now and and most dwellers on this forum have responded positively.
I agree with your view that DAS is a good tool to evaluate drivers. I also find it useful for tweaking performance especially when you can compare two driver's performance side by side.
CC takes some ribbing because he is still at the stage where he's working on finding the right lines. Many have suggested getting an instructor to speed up the process. After considerable back and forth all (incl.CC) agree that the G-Sum is not the right tool for the job.
There is some good natured kidding (at least I hope my comments about DAS-Pirin are taken that way) which add a bit of levity to the thread.
I much appreciate your input to this discussion both technically and the reminder not to let jest migrate to hurtful jibes.
Rgds,
Well said. CC always provokes lively discussions - the size of this thread is an example. There was a time when he was something of a bull in a china shop himself. For example, he espoused trail braking using ABS all the way to the apex as the correct way to enter any turn. When someone posted an article by Paul Gentilozzi on how to drive a CUP car which contradicted his theory, he dismissed Paul as a bad driver.
That's changed now and and most dwellers on this forum have responded positively.
I agree with your view that DAS is a good tool to evaluate drivers. I also find it useful for tweaking performance especially when you can compare two driver's performance side by side.
CC takes some ribbing because he is still at the stage where he's working on finding the right lines. Many have suggested getting an instructor to speed up the process. After considerable back and forth all (incl.CC) agree that the G-Sum is not the right tool for the job.
There is some good natured kidding (at least I hope my comments about DAS-Pirin are taken that way) which add a bit of levity to the thread.
I much appreciate your input to this discussion both technically and the reminder not to let jest migrate to hurtful jibes.
Rgds,
08-14-2004, 01:44 PM
#129
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Hmmm...
The problem with "Engineers" is that they flatly assume that their engineering ability can be equally applied to each and every circumstance they find themsleves in. Their Black & White world does not allow for exception. This of course, is utter folly. I had a engineer friend of mine tell me "if you can control all the variables, the outcome is a certainty!" This was in regards to his first attempt at indexing 944 torsion bars.
A more vacuous statement has likely never been uttered.
M758 nailed it. DAS is indeed an incredibly powerful tool, but it cannot tell you what to do. It may tell you that one thing worked, and another didn't, but it cannot create for you the next new idea. It does eliminate failures, and point out successes, but it is up to the driver to come up with new concepts, and to meld the various successful bits into a successful corner, sequence, lap.
Without the experience to interpret the data as physical sensation, I'm not sure how effective it will be. Many of the drivers on this list could likely put DAS to very good use (and do), but only because they have the experience to be able to APPLY the data. Trying to learn how to drive from it seems backwards, just like a video sim will only tell you where the turns go, but nothing else. It's a start, but only just.
Hopefully - and I emphasize that - Color will manage to simultaneously learn how to drive AND how to interpret data.
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As an asside - Anyone who gets "invited" to the Run Offs has made use of every tool imagineable to get there, and has more skill and knowledge than any of us other doofi ever likely will. Even I myself - not one prone to needless humility - will give that accomplishment proper due.
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Chris - Your addition is appreciated, but...
Any "flak" he is getting has come the Smith-Barney way. He's earned it! It is his concrete-blanket insistance that his way is the only way that has irked people. When theory meets experience, the WISE novice will listen and at least publicly defer. While it likely has been the underlying effect of all of this, I don't think Color will admit to learning much here.
Yes indeed, and in that ten years most of us hopefully learned how to DRIVE well enough to not kill ourselves when we tried Fast-In, Fast-Out !!!! It may be the fastest way to drive, but it IS NOT the fastest way to learn... for the mortals amongst us anyway.
The problem with "Engineers" is that they flatly assume that their engineering ability can be equally applied to each and every circumstance they find themsleves in. Their Black & White world does not allow for exception. This of course, is utter folly. I had a engineer friend of mine tell me "if you can control all the variables, the outcome is a certainty!" This was in regards to his first attempt at indexing 944 torsion bars.
A more vacuous statement has likely never been uttered.M758 nailed it. DAS is indeed an incredibly powerful tool, but it cannot tell you what to do. It may tell you that one thing worked, and another didn't, but it cannot create for you the next new idea. It does eliminate failures, and point out successes, but it is up to the driver to come up with new concepts, and to meld the various successful bits into a successful corner, sequence, lap.
Without the experience to interpret the data as physical sensation, I'm not sure how effective it will be. Many of the drivers on this list could likely put DAS to very good use (and do), but only because they have the experience to be able to APPLY the data. Trying to learn how to drive from it seems backwards, just like a video sim will only tell you where the turns go, but nothing else. It's a start, but only just.
Hopefully - and I emphasize that - Color will manage to simultaneously learn how to drive AND how to interpret data.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an asside - Anyone who gets "invited" to the Run Offs has made use of every tool imagineable to get there, and has more skill and knowledge than any of us other doofi ever likely will. Even I myself - not one prone to needless humility - will give that accomplishment proper due.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris - Your addition is appreciated, but...
Why is Colorchange getting so much flak? He is being scientific and learning in a way that suits him. What is the problem with this?
In skimming through this thread I see he has a few things dead correct. The most important is that the concept of slow-in fast-out is dead wrong. Usually it takes about 10 years before you figure out how wrong this advice is.
08-14-2004, 11:52 PM
#130
Three Wheelin'
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M758: Listening to bad advice is not good. Not listening to good advice is bad. I try to do that. I don’t disagree that a good instructor could help me. I never said he wouldn’t. I will post new video and data when I track my car with the new brakes. Let’s come back to that issue then. I have already shown old data (Lambo) that shows I know how to trail brake reasonably well.
Bob, STOP LIEING ABOUT ME PLEASE!
As I have said REPEATEDLY and directly corrected you REPREATEDLY, the ABS to the apex is a theoretical argument that happens to be dead correct! I also did not say Gentilozzi was a bad driver. STOP LIEING. I said he is either not telling the truth (on purpose possibly) or he does not know what he is talking about. I never said he was a bad driver.
Wrong again, g-sum IS the right tool for analyzing the best line, it just cannot suggest it. My claim of maximizing g-sum is correct but you have to add the caveat of in the appropriate direction (effectively saying on the right line).
John:
Isn’t your opening paragraph a nice, stupid, irrelevant overgeneralization?
What make you think I can’t drive? You have 2 videos (both in brand new cars) and a wealth of in car data to select from. I have put up, now you either make your case I can’t drive or shut the hell up!
Sorry again John, where people suggest slow in, fast out, finish you business before turn in, … is so wrong for fast driving that I should stand up and call it wrong, prove it wrong, and continue to do so. I did all that and will continue to do that. That is why I think you guys can’t stand me. Now, when someone of Chris’s caliber steps up on my side … hmm, maybe YOU guys should be the ones to listen more closely.
Oh boy was that fun.
Yes I know I’m a *****, but I’m a right *****.
If it is good to teach these wrong concepts to a beginner (which my driving and data shows I am not) I will leave up to you “instructors”. In my largely unqualified opinion, it is not. Personally, I would teach a newbie to just trail brake a little in the beginning so the concept is planted. Then again, I don’t think I’m qualified to instruct.
Bob, STOP LIEING ABOUT ME PLEASE!
As I have said REPEATEDLY and directly corrected you REPREATEDLY, the ABS to the apex is a theoretical argument that happens to be dead correct! I also did not say Gentilozzi was a bad driver. STOP LIEING. I said he is either not telling the truth (on purpose possibly) or he does not know what he is talking about. I never said he was a bad driver.
Wrong again, g-sum IS the right tool for analyzing the best line, it just cannot suggest it. My claim of maximizing g-sum is correct but you have to add the caveat of in the appropriate direction (effectively saying on the right line).
John:
Isn’t your opening paragraph a nice, stupid, irrelevant overgeneralization?
What make you think I can’t drive? You have 2 videos (both in brand new cars) and a wealth of in car data to select from. I have put up, now you either make your case I can’t drive or shut the hell up!
Sorry again John, where people suggest slow in, fast out, finish you business before turn in, … is so wrong for fast driving that I should stand up and call it wrong, prove it wrong, and continue to do so. I did all that and will continue to do that. That is why I think you guys can’t stand me. Now, when someone of Chris’s caliber steps up on my side … hmm, maybe YOU guys should be the ones to listen more closely.
Oh boy was that fun.
Yes I know I’m a *****, but I’m a right *****.
If it is good to teach these wrong concepts to a beginner (which my driving and data shows I am not) I will leave up to you “instructors”. In my largely unqualified opinion, it is not. Personally, I would teach a newbie to just trail brake a little in the beginning so the concept is planted. Then again, I don’t think I’m qualified to instruct.
08-15-2004, 01:31 AM
#131
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CC,
Since you are certain that you are right about your approach, what can anyone here help you with?
There is little point in your telling everyone how right you are because talk is cheap. Even if you are absolutely correct and the rest of us are all wrong, you have not proven anything. You've made a lot of claims and a lot of excuses. You need to prove yourself with your driving. I've been doing DE and timetrials since 2000. I've never told anyone that I'm a good driver. I let them figure that out on their own.
When your driving skills don't allow you to lap consistently on a line, it is difficult to compare lines without other variables held constant. DAS is great for doing sector analysis. Lap times on a technical track is lacking since it is so hard to tell exactly where you are losing time.
If you open your mind a bit by accepting some time honored tenets of performance driving and apply DAS to fine tuning your performance, you could become a better driver. Don't ever believe that something is true because you can convince your self with a technical argument. If you can't prove it on the track, you might be all wet.
Since you are certain that you are right about your approach, what can anyone here help you with?
There is little point in your telling everyone how right you are because talk is cheap. Even if you are absolutely correct and the rest of us are all wrong, you have not proven anything. You've made a lot of claims and a lot of excuses. You need to prove yourself with your driving. I've been doing DE and timetrials since 2000. I've never told anyone that I'm a good driver. I let them figure that out on their own.
When your driving skills don't allow you to lap consistently on a line, it is difficult to compare lines without other variables held constant. DAS is great for doing sector analysis. Lap times on a technical track is lacking since it is so hard to tell exactly where you are losing time.
If you open your mind a bit by accepting some time honored tenets of performance driving and apply DAS to fine tuning your performance, you could become a better driver. Don't ever believe that something is true because you can convince your self with a technical argument. If you can't prove it on the track, you might be all wet.
08-15-2004, 02:22 AM
#132
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
M758: Listening to bad advice is not good. Not listening to good advice is bad. I try to do that. I don’t disagree that a good instructor could help me. I never said he wouldn’t. I will post new video and data when I track my car with the new brakes. Let’s come back to that issue then. I have already shown old data (Lambo) that shows I know how to trail brake reasonably well.
I have never had an issue with your trail braking or trail braking in general. It is advanced skill that is not right for everyone, but very rewarding for those that can get it right. I know Chris personally and I remember a seminar he gave about a year and a half ago. He talked quite a bit about braking after turn in and how that was a critical skill to be learned and mastered if one wants to win races. At that time I was learning to trail brake and really listen to his comments. I focused on that part of my driving and have been quite sucessfull using trail braking (or braking after turn in). I race in a spec class and with a group of cars having hp raning from 128 -135 rwhp, weight within 50lbs, nearly identical suspension, and the same tires. All of this means that it is driver that makes the difference in the results. I can tell you that if you drive a spec car and do NOT trail brake you will be doing alot of watching as those that trail brake lap you over and over again.
My concern however has been your focus on DAS as your primay learning tool. I think it is unwise to think that DAS will be you savior. It is a tool, but will not teach you consistancy. I frimly believe that you need spend more time with instructors to help you with consistancy and getting feel down in the car. This I believe is essential. When you started this thread you asked for help to get faster. From the video you are not making so many mistakes that cleary obvious. So video shows you be decient. Not if you really want to be great you need to develop a feel and oneness with the car. This comes not from analyizing G-tracks, but from you butt and balancing the car at the limit. Really fast drivers want to minimize their G-'s in each corner to mazimize speed. Really fast drivers also will be braking long after turn in. They also have the ablity to feel the car and may corrections to maintain the car an unstable equilbrium. If you cannnot feel these aspect you cannot balance the car in unstable equilibrium. So the root of speed is feel once you can "feel" the car use DAS to optimze.
Absolute speed and consistancty are also two seperate things. For me I can go into a few modes. One is qualfying mode. Here I push as hard as I can to get that last little bit of speed. In this mode I am not the most consistant since I am pushing very hard. Some times I push too hard and error. When want to be consistant I don't push quite as hard and focus on hitting my marks. It is really mental thing. In consistancy mode I can crank out laps for 20-30 min all within 1 second of each other and averaging about .5 sec off my personal best. What can DAS show. Well it can show that I am or am not consistant, but it can't say why I was or was not consistant.
That is critical issue with DAS. It can show that your CAR did one thing or another while on the track, but rarely does it have the capability to tell YOU what YOU did on the track. So how do you get better?
In another thread some guys spoke of driving slower cars. Well competition is all about showing how good you are. How good you are is not defined by going fast in a superfast car. No it is getting more speed from a slow car than anyone ever possible. Driving a "slow" 944 and passing folks in "faster" cars very satisfying experience.
08-15-2004, 03:30 AM
#134
Haiku Grasshoppa
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
M758: Listening to bad advice is not good. Not listening to good advice is bad. I try to do that.
Yes I know I’m a *****, but I’m a right *****.
Yes I know I’m a *****, but I’m a right *****.
Yes, you are a right *****.
08-15-2004, 06:35 AM
#135
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Bob, STOP LIEING ABOUT ME PLEASE!
As I have said REPEATEDLY and directly corrected you REPREATEDLY, the ABS to the apex is a theoretical argument that happens to be dead correct! I also did not say Gentilozzi was a bad driver. STOP LIEING.
Wrong again
John:
Isn’t your opening paragraph a nice, stupid, irrelevant overgeneralization?
What make you think I can’t drive? You have 2 videos (both in brand new cars) and a wealth of in car data to select from. I have put up, now you either make your case I can’t drive or shut the hell up!
Sorry again John, where people suggest slow in, fast out, finish you business before turn in, … is so wrong for fast driving that I should stand up and call it wrong, prove it wrong, and continue to do so. I did all that and will continue to do that. That is why I think you guys can’t stand me. Now, when someone of Chris’s caliber steps up on my side … hmm, maybe YOU guys should be the ones to listen more closely.
Oh boy was that fun.
Yes I know I’m a *****, but I’m a right *****.
If it is good to teach these wrong concepts to a beginner (which my driving and data shows I am not) I will leave up to you “instructors”. In my largely unqualified opinion, it is not. Personally, I would teach a newbie to just trail brake a little in the beginning so the concept is planted. Then again, I don’t think I’m qualified to instruct.
Jim