Gingerman Track Video 996tt
#196
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Originally Posted by DJ
* Read post #6 and then the response in #15
#197
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Originally Posted by DJ
"My car is unique, and needs a different line..."
In short, No, it doesn't.
In short, No, it doesn't.
When an instructor offers the input that they're all over the track, in all the wrong places, they sometimes try to justify it based -- again -- on equipment. "This car has four-wheel-drive and a positive-displacement supercharger, so I really need to be up in the marbles on that sweeper..."
Okay.
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For a long time, as a driver of a rear-engine, low-hp car, I took it as gospel that the Corvettes and Vipers had to thread a different needle around the track than me. When I finally started driving the front-engine cars of students, I tried to figure out why I ought to be on a different line than my 911. I couldn't, but I still cautioned the students that a lot of my points of reference were from the 911 world.
It wasn't until I went out as a passenger in a Viper, with a particularly fast Viper driver (faster, in a comparable car, than the late Paul Mumford) that I got to see that the fast Viper line is, well... pretty much exactly the same as the fast 911 line.
Ultimately, there are some things you do slightly differently, based on the weight and capabilities of a particular car. But the differences are far too subtle to make a meaningful difference to novice -- or even intermediate -- drivers. I have maybe 100 track days under my belt, and I'm usually still just trying to get myself to be consistent on that basic line. Maybe after another 100 days, I'll start thinking about the particular changes I could try for my 'unique car.'
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Originally Posted by JackOlsen
It wasn't until I went out as a passenger in a Viper, with a particularly fast Viper driver (faster, in a comparable car, than the late Paul Mumford) that I got to see that the fast Viper line is, well... pretty much exactly the same as the fast 911 line.
Jack,
I would love to know who that driver was. PMUM was/is a legend and I can only think of a Viper driver or two at most that were his equal.
Anyway I will also support DJ's statement that the line is the line. I had the pleasure of letting a pro driver have his first drive in a 911. I was a relative newbie and this guy drove my car faster on the warmup lap than I ever had at full tilt and by the time we got going I was in awe (and close to messing my pants!). I asked him if he drove it any different than other cars and he said yes, then I asked him if he would drive another vehicle on a different line, he said no, the line was the line with only one or two minor changes. This was at Putnam Park, btw.
At Mid Ohio, where he had three or four Run Off titles (Spec Racer Ford and Formula Atlantic) he said he used the same line. If you know these cars they are a world apart in terms of performance. He taught me lots of tricks in my 911 there and those were the same "tricks" he used in a FA.
#200
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NetManiac
Race Car Engineering just ran a feature article that very clearly showed the momentum line was not the fastest for a high powered car, even though the speed at the apex was quite a bit slower for the high powered line.
DJ:
How much money do you want to put on it? And of course, I'll need to see your cash and have an independant third party hold the funds in escrow. It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ... yet. Now, seeing as your experience is so critical, I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time.
Race Car Engineering just ran a feature article that very clearly showed the momentum line was not the fastest for a high powered car, even though the speed at the apex was quite a bit slower for the high powered line.
DJ:
How much money do you want to put on it? And of course, I'll need to see your cash and have an independant third party hold the funds in escrow. It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ... yet. Now, seeing as your experience is so critical, I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time.
#201
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Greg:
I will fax or e-mail the article to you if you wish. I think you would be honest about reading it. Also, since you said it doesn't change, I will look into it closer.
I will fax or e-mail the article to you if you wish. I think you would be honest about reading it. Also, since you said it doesn't change, I will look into it closer.
#203
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Jack,I would love to know who that driver was. PMUM was/is a legend and I can only think of a Viper driver or two at most that were his equal.
Now, Mumford moved on to quicker cars, including his Comp Coupe in 2003, and continued to get faster and faster. But in the early days, these two guys were neck and neck.
I met Mumford on a few different occasions, and drove in two weeklong competitions with him. I don't want to take anything away from his reputation at all. He was a phenomenally fast driver, and also an extremely nice (and helpful) guy.
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Jack,
I knew you weren't taking anything away from Mumford, just curious if it was someone like Tommy Archer who you rode with. I have been on the track with the Archer's and they are all very quick.
I knew you weren't taking anything away from Mumford, just curious if it was someone like Tommy Archer who you rode with. I have been on the track with the Archer's and they are all very quick.
#205
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Greg:
Thought about you a few weekends ago - I instructed at VIR Viper Days in my TT. It was fun drafting, then passing, the comp coupes into the braking zone on the back straight. Then I can turn on the AC and some tunes to go get lunch!
Just bought a 996 Cup so I can finally RACE instead of being the DE hero. Look forward to seeing you soon, maybe at CMP?
Chris
Thought about you a few weekends ago - I instructed at VIR Viper Days in my TT. It was fun drafting, then passing, the comp coupes into the braking zone on the back straight. Then I can turn on the AC and some tunes to go get lunch!
Just bought a 996 Cup so I can finally RACE instead of being the DE hero. Look forward to seeing you soon, maybe at CMP?
Chris
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Chris,
I want a ride in that TT, damn it must be one quick ride!
Congrats on the new car. There is a chance I may be at CMP. Now when do I get a seat during the enduro!
I want a ride in that TT, damn it must be one quick ride!
Congrats on the new car. There is a chance I may be at CMP. Now when do I get a seat during the enduro!
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#207
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Greg:
Its quick, but still HEAVY. Always eating tires and brakes, and gas....
I think I did a few 2:02's @ VIR. Or, at least my friend in his 04 Cup Car was, and I caught him
The suspension is just a PSS9 which frankly sucks on the track. A few other mods, maybe 520HP or so.
Hope to see you at CMP. As this will be my first race, I'll probably do the whole enduro on my own!
Its quick, but still HEAVY. Always eating tires and brakes, and gas....
I think I did a few 2:02's @ VIR. Or, at least my friend in his 04 Cup Car was, and I caught him
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The suspension is just a PSS9 which frankly sucks on the track. A few other mods, maybe 520HP or so.
Hope to see you at CMP. As this will be my first race, I'll probably do the whole enduro on my own!
#208
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Originally Posted by FormulaOne10
I don't know where everybody learned it but I cringe every time I hear the phrase "slow in, fast out"! Slow in, fast out is just plain slow! Fast in fast out is always faster (and also hard as hell to do sometimes). Watch corner entry speeds in an F1 race and see how much braking they do at the last second while starting to turn the car.
When I hear "slow-in, fast-out", here's what I think: A typical DE newbie will charge into a corner, wait until the last possible second (and then some) and then mash the brake pedal as hard as possible. Often, the car will still feel like it's going too fast, so the newbie continues braking into the corner (trail braking) and continues braking until the speed feels comfortable. Often, the newbie can then jump back on the gas, and full throttle, because the car is going well under the limit.
So, the instructor tells them "slow-in, fast-out". The instructor isn't saying to enter the corner slower. It's possible (probable even) that the student is entering the corner at about the slowest possible way while still being on the friction circle. Instead, the instructor is trying to tell the student to slow down the inputs and to make it feel like things are going slower.
So, first thing: brake much, much earlier. Get the car slowed down early and in a straight line. Have the car well balanced for the turn-in and then enter at the same speed that they were doing. That speed is going to feel slow. Hopefully the light bulb will start to brighten and the student will realized that what he thought was fast was slow. Next lap, he can reduce the amount of braking and enter the turn faster. Same with the lap after that. By the end of the day, he might be taking the turn-in near the limit. After that is done, the student can go back to braking harder and later and seeing what a bit of trail braking does to turn-in speed. That is when you get fast-in, fast-out
Yes, I agree that slow-in, fast-out is slow, but that is what a lot of people do and they think they are going fast when they arent. The common instructor exercise of getting people to brake in a straight line and brake early is great for getting people to change habits and to see how slow they were really going.
#209
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
DJ:
How much money do you want to put on it? And of course, I'll need to see your cash and have an independant third party hold the funds in escrow. It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ... yet. Now, seeing as your experience is so critical, I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time.
How much money do you want to put on it? And of course, I'll need to see your cash and have an independant third party hold the funds in escrow. It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ... yet. Now, seeing as your experience is so critical, I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time.
I'm not much of a betting man (just don't like the concept of gambling money), but I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is... I don't know, $10k?
We can have Dan962C hold the money. He's an attorney, so I'm sure he's got a trust account he can use.
"It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ...
The back-pedalling begins...
"I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time"
Five Per Cent? LOL! So, if I turn a lap (at some track) of 2:00.00, you can turn a 2:05.99 and call that a win? My warm-up laps are quicker than that. Heck, I can run six seconds off the pace smoking a cigarette, one arm out the window, listening to tunes on the stereo, holding a beer between my legs.
You assume wrong.
You wanna be a big-boy and bet money on how right your theories are? Then bet like a man, and quit making excuses.