NetManiac

C'mon DJ, the guy doesn't know who Randy Pobst is*, do you think he is going to recognize any of those names, much less give them credit for being able to drive.

* Read post #6 and then the response in #15

JackOlsen

This is a very worthwhile point. I don't konw if it's just a 'guy' instinct, or what, but track novices grasp at ways to rationalize the fact that they are so much slower than other drivers with 'less car' and more experience. For some reason, the self-evident truth of "I'm new to this, and still not very good." hardly ever finds its way to the top of their excuses list. Their first line of defense is usually their equipment; i.e. "As soon as I get an [aftermarket gizmo by Brand X], and some Hoosiers, I'm going to be running at the front of the pack."

When an instructor offers the input that they're all over the track, in all the wrong places, they sometimes try to justify it based -- again -- on equipment. "This car has four-wheel-drive and a positive-displacement supercharger, so I really need to be up in the marbles on that sweeper..."

Okay.

For a long time, as a driver of a rear-engine, low-hp car, I took it as gospel that the Corvettes and Vipers had to thread a different needle around the track than me. When I finally started driving the front-engine cars of students, I tried to figure out why I ought to be on a different line than my 911. I couldn't, but I still cautioned the students that a lot of my points of reference were from the 911 world.

It wasn't until I went out as a passenger in a Viper, with a particularly fast Viper driver (faster, in a comparable car, than the late Paul Mumford) that I got to see that the fast Viper line is, well... pretty much exactly the same as the fast 911 line.

Ultimately, there are some things you do slightly differently, based on the weight and capabilities of a particular car. But the differences are far too subtle to make a meaningful difference to novice -- or even intermediate -- drivers. I have maybe 100 track days under my belt, and I'm usually still just trying to get myself to be consistent on that basic line. Maybe after another 100 days, I'll start thinking about the particular changes I could try for my 'unique car.'

Phil

Jack,
You don't need another 100 days of track time, all you need is a DAS G-SUM spectrum RF doo hickey!! oh yeah....and a Book. Thats it...

Greg Fishman

Jack,
I would love to know who that driver was. PMUM was/is a legend and I can only think of a Viper driver or two at most that were his equal.


Anyway I will also support DJ's statement that the line is the line. I had the pleasure of letting a pro driver have his first drive in a 911. I was a relative newbie and this guy drove my car faster on the warmup lap than I ever had at full tilt and by the time we got going I was in awe (and close to messing my pants!). I asked him if he drove it any different than other cars and he said yes, then I asked him if he would drive another vehicle on a different line, he said no, the line was the line with only one or two minor changes. This was at Putnam Park, btw.

At Mid Ohio, where he had three or four Run Off titles (Spec Racer Ford and Formula Atlantic) he said he used the same line. If you know these cars they are a world apart in terms of performance. He taught me lots of tricks in my 911 there and those were the same "tricks" he used in a FA.

ColorChange

NetManiac

Race Car Engineering just ran a feature article that very clearly showed the momentum line was not the fastest for a high powered car, even though the speed at the apex was quite a bit slower for the high powered line.

DJ:
How much money do you want to put on it? And of course, I'll need to see your cash and have an independant third party hold the funds in escrow. It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ... yet. Now, seeing as your experience is so critical, I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time.

ColorChange

Greg:
I will fax or e-mail the article to you if you wish. I think you would be honest about reading it. Also, since you said it doesn't change, I will look into it closer.

Greg Fishman

CC,
Which ever is easiest for you, but I would like to read the article.
I will send you a PM with my fax #.

JackOlsen

I'm not saying the guy is better than Mumford -- not by a longshot. But the driver I went out with is Terry Rossi, who was a driving buddy of Mumford's in his earlier days. In a stock Viper on street tires, Mumford drove 1:30's at Willow Springs. Rossi has since beaten that time by over a second. (Then again, different laptimes on different days are not apples-to-apples.)

Now, Mumford moved on to quicker cars, including his Comp Coupe in 2003, and continued to get faster and faster. But in the early days, these two guys were neck and neck.

I met Mumford on a few different occasions, and drove in two weeklong competitions with him. I don't want to take anything away from his reputation at all. He was a phenomenally fast driver, and also an extremely nice (and helpful) guy.

Greg Fishman

Jack,
I knew you weren't taking anything away from Mumford, just curious if it was someone like Tommy Archer who you rode with. I have been on the track with the Archer's and they are all very quick.

RSRRacer

Greg:

Thought about you a few weekends ago - I instructed at VIR Viper Days in my TT. It was fun drafting, then passing, the comp coupes into the braking zone on the back straight. Then I can turn on the AC and some tunes to go get lunch!

Just bought a 996 Cup so I can finally RACE instead of being the DE hero. Look forward to seeing you soon, maybe at CMP?

Chris

Greg Fishman

Chris,
I want a ride in that TT, damn it must be one quick ride!

Congrats on the new car. There is a chance I may be at CMP. Now when do I get a seat during the enduro!

RSRRacer

Greg:

Its quick, but still HEAVY. Always eating tires and brakes, and gas....

I think I did a few 2:02's @ VIR. Or, at least my friend in his 04 Cup Car was, and I caught him

The suspension is just a PSS9 which frankly sucks on the track. A few other mods, maybe 520HP or so.

Hope to see you at CMP. As this will be my first race, I'll probably do the whole enduro on my own!

Brian P

Well, this is great advice if you are instructing an F1 driver or even a club racer who has a few events under his belt. I'm not exactly sure what it has to do with instructing a DE driver who has a few days of experience.

When I hear "slow-in, fast-out", here's what I think: A typical DE newbie will charge into a corner, wait until the last possible second (and then some) and then mash the brake pedal as hard as possible. Often, the car will still feel like it's going too fast, so the newbie continues braking into the corner (trail braking) and continues braking until the speed feels comfortable. Often, the newbie can then jump back on the gas, and full throttle, because the car is going well under the limit.

So, the instructor tells them "slow-in, fast-out". The instructor isn't saying to enter the corner slower. It's possible (probable even) that the student is entering the corner at about the slowest possible way while still being on the friction circle. Instead, the instructor is trying to tell the student to slow down the inputs and to make it feel like things are going slower.

So, first thing: brake much, much earlier. Get the car slowed down early and in a straight line. Have the car well balanced for the turn-in and then enter at the same speed that they were doing. That speed is going to feel slow. Hopefully the light bulb will start to brighten and the student will realized that what he thought was fast was slow. Next lap, he can reduce the amount of braking and enter the turn faster. Same with the lap after that. By the end of the day, he might be taking the turn-in near the limit. After that is done, the student can go back to braking harder and later and seeing what a bit of trail braking does to turn-in speed. That is when you get fast-in, fast-out

Yes, I agree that slow-in, fast-out is slow, but that is what a lot of people do and they think they are going fast when they arent. The common instructor exercise of getting people to brake in a straight line and brake early is great for getting people to change habits and to see how slow they were really going.

DJ

I'm not much of a betting man (just don't like the concept of gambling money), but I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is... I don't know, $10k?

We can have Dan962C hold the money. He's an attorney, so I'm sure he's got a trust account he can use.



"It won't be anytime soon though, like I said, I'm not very good ...

The back-pedalling begins...


"I'm assuming you'll spot such a bad driving newbie as me at least 5% of your lap time"

Five Per Cent? LOL! So, if I turn a lap (at some track) of 2:00.00, you can turn a 2:05.99 and call that a win? My warm-up laps are quicker than that. Heck, I can run six seconds off the pace smoking a cigarette, one arm out the window, listening to tunes on the stereo, holding a beer between my legs.

You assume wrong.

You wanna be a big-boy and bet money on how right your theories are? Then bet like a man, and quit making excuses.

trumperZ06

ROFLMAO... CC's been "Called Out" !!!

If you believe in your "Theory's " CC.... put your MONEY where your Mouth is!!!

Who-all wants to "bet" CC doesn't "show" ?