Gingerman Track Video 996tt
08-12-2004, 02:56 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Assuming I was on the fc along that line (I wasn’t), you could only be faster on exit (near this line) by choosing a little earlier apex which would allow you to get on the throttle earlier, and now with the higher speed, your lat g’s would be higher at track out. The question is, how much would you have to give up in the first half of the turn to make that earlier apex? Again, like you said, drive the different lines and analyze the data.
"For those who are reading these posts, please do not beilieve the vast majority of what you are reading. Most of the comments are flat wrong and reflect an amazing level of ignorance/misinformation.
If you are serious about understanding the subject, please study any vehicle dynamics book, Miliken being the most widely accepted, and you should will learn the truth."
So if anyone thinks that an earlier apex lets you get on the throttle earlier (without crashing), please study any driving book.
So to review, here is a guy with very limited track experience, using a low end data aq system, relying on the one tool that the professional data engineers say is the least valuable for driver development, doesn't know what happens with an early vs. late apex, refuses to listen to instructors and now demands that others learn from irrefutable evidence. CC, you funny guy.
My advice to ColorChange is that he take up a sport that involves rental shoes.
08-12-2004, 03:23 PM
#47
Race Car
Originally Posted by ColorChange
How many times you have done something says NOTHING about how well you do it. Another way to put that is never confuse activity with accomplishment.
I suppose we could ask you what it is you're looking to gain from your internet discussions, but I think it might spoil the fun.
What's a Haiku, 5/7/5?
08-12-2004, 03:26 PM
#48
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Member
Mark
Are ski boots considered rental shoes?
Ski racing involves correct line and grip and smoothness and accceleration and braking and g's and apexes... you get the idea. But they still have those pesky stopwatches that defy theory.
Our loss would be Rennski's gain.
Are ski boots considered rental shoes?
Ski racing involves correct line and grip and smoothness and accceleration and braking and g's and apexes... you get the idea. But they still have those pesky stopwatches that defy theory.
Our loss would be Rennski's gain.
08-12-2004, 03:35 PM
#49
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by JackOlsen
ColorChange, you are precious.
I suppose we could ask you what it is you're looking to gain from your internet discussions, but I think it might spoil the fun.
What's a Haiku, 5/7/5?
I suppose we could ask you what it is you're looking to gain from your internet discussions, but I think it might spoil the fun.
What's a Haiku, 5/7/5?
Yes, It is five/seven/five
Feeling poetic?
08-12-2004, 03:47 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
Mark
Are ski boots considered rental shoes?
Are ski boots considered rental shoes?
The first rule to becoming a fast driver is to be open to learning. The data acquisition is only one tool and should not be the only one used. Obviously in this case, the most valuable tool is not being used effectively...an in car instructor.
We all sound like broken records here.
08-12-2004, 03:47 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
(You could be quicker by taking a different line though.)
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Again, like you said, drive the different lines and analyze the data.
08-12-2004, 03:59 PM
#53
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Jack, I am highly selective in who I listen to and who I respond to. Greg always, Bob R sometimes, Mitch usually still I hope, F1 always, Joey and Brian usually, Mike and Redlineman sometimes, Sunday, DJ, Geo, Z-man, and Trumper rarely/never based upon demonstrated character (or lack thereof) in previous threads.
I listen highly selectively to those who present facts or informed/rational opinions, and do my best to tolerate the rest.
I agree with you Joey, I have a little left on the current line but will definitely try your line (and others) as well.
I listen highly selectively to those who present facts or informed/rational opinions, and do my best to tolerate the rest.
I agree with you Joey, I have a little left on the current line but will definitely try your line (and others) as well.
08-12-2004, 04:01 PM
#54
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Mark
"My advice to ColorChange is that he take up a sport that involves rental shoes."
The only other shoes I've rented are bowling shoes and swimfins (if those count). That's kind of limiting. Are there others?
"My advice to ColorChange is that he take up a sport that involves rental shoes."
The only other shoes I've rented are bowling shoes and swimfins (if those count). That's kind of limiting. Are there others?
08-12-2004, 04:28 PM
#55
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Mike, I think bowling is all he needs. The others are fine as long as that attitude would stay off the track.
Intersting pattern. There is only one or two people he listens to. Yet there are dozens here that I have learned from - each with a perspective that is different than mine and valuable. Each who is capable of entering a technical discussion, disagreeing and remaining civil and educational. I note that the rarely/never list is comprised of the people who questioned his theories by attacking assumptions and presenting technical arguments counter to CC's theories. The same group who have reoutinely asked the difficult questions of CC which he has universally ignored and often responded with personal attacks.
Well, I know two things for sure about data engineering and driving:
1) I know more about data engineering than CC and am a better driver.
2) In the grand scheme, I don't know much about data engineering and am not that good a driver.
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Jack, I am highly selective in who I listen to and who I respond to. Greg always, Bob R sometimes, Mitch usually still I hope, F1 always, Joey and Brian usually, Mike and Redlineman sometimes, Sunday, DJ, Geo, Z-man, and Trumper rarely/never based upon demonstrated character (or lack thereof) in previous threads.
Well, I know two things for sure about data engineering and driving:
1) I know more about data engineering than CC and am a better driver.
2) In the grand scheme, I don't know much about data engineering and am not that good a driver.
08-12-2004, 05:12 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
For anywhere you are on the track, if your g sum is maxed out, that is as much lat/long g's (in combination) as you can handle without a skid. So, on a given line, if you are on the fc (max g sum), you can't go any faster. (You could be quicker by taking a different line though.)
This is just one example. Maybe your g-sum max is 1g (as you have stated), what I propose is that other drivers may be able to achieve 1.1g with your car.
Originally Posted by colorchange
Mitch, the fact that you don't care what the g-g plots say is precisely your downfall.
Originally Posted by colorchange
How many times you have done something says NOTHING about how well you do it. Another way to put that is never confuse activity with accomplishment.
Originally Posted by colorchange
Mitch, how about you stop telling me to stop talking and learn what irrefutable evidence is. Who has the closed mind, you who says I will ignore the facts and think I can never learn anything from a highly technical student in a highly instrumented car, or me who says I can learn a lot from many people, but I will discard any advice that is proved to be wrong.
Mitch, c'mon, lighten up. We're just having as discussion
Mitch, c'mon, lighten up. We're just having as discussion
Originally Posted by colorchange
You can't exit much faster than that along that line.
Sorry if I offended you but many folks here have been doing this for a long time and have seen these kinds of drivers come and go.
The reason I suggest a slower car to learn in is because it forces you to learn how to wring every last drop of speed out of your car just to keep up. Could DAS help me? Surely. Will more seat time help me, definately. Which is more important? I will leave that question unanswered.
08-12-2004, 05:35 PM
#57
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wow just took me about 20 min to read the last two pages....CC my dad has the AIM system in his car too and sometimes the line the AIM system is working for him is not working for me or doesnt make me go as fast as my own line....Joe sat in my car last year when it was my first time at gingerman I used joes line and then worked in a couple things and I can tell ya that just about no one passed me with the exception of the two big GT cars this past weekend. Joeys line is right on in these discussions. I am by no means a pro, but my student and I both did pretty well driving like joe is descibing. Non the less this is becoming pretty entertaining...time to go get some popcorn
08-12-2004, 06:08 PM
#58
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Mitch, thanks for the reasonable response.
This is just one example. Maybe your g-sum max is 1g (as you have stated), what I propose is that other drivers may be able to achieve 1.1g with your car.
Mitch, the g-sum limit on the car (neglecting aero effects which are small in our cars), is a matter of physics, and is relatively constant at 1.0 to possible 1.05 in my car on those tires. You can test this on a skid pad and by collecting data on the track just before you skid. Since I skid, or slide at too high a slip angle often, while I am learning my car (and because I am not a great driver I make many mistakes), I know very well what this number is. There is not much any driver can do to change this number. The driver can change the line, but not that capability of the car. That is precisely why the g sum concept is so valuable. It tells the driver how close he is to driving the car at it’s limits.
I have many downfalls, but mostly I need seat time. You may use DAS, I use my senses.
I do my best to use my senses also, in the very limited track time I get. I use the DAS to make most efficient/productive use of that time, and I believe it is a phenomenal tool if you can understand it.
There is no substitute for HP and seat time, you have one.
True.
I never said that DAS is worthless. I never said that you wouldn't learn anything from your instructors (although I remember a thread where you ranted about your inept instructor) either. What I say is that when you make statemements like
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorchange
You can't exit much faster than that along that line.
I get offended. I'm sorry but I can't believe that a more experienced driver couldn't do it better on the same line, in your car. DAS is useful but is not infallable.
You shouldn’t get offended. If I am driving the car near it’s limits on that line, no one else could do much better … on that line. Again, that is probably not the best line. If you have a high g-sum, your doing as well as you can along that line. Simple physics, not bragging or anything else when you have the data to back it up.
Sorry if I offended you but many folks here have been doing this for a long time and have seen these kinds of drivers come and go.
The reason I suggest a slower car to learn in is because it forces you to learn how to wring every last drop of speed out of your car just to keep up. Could DAS help me? Surely. Will more seat time help me, definately. Which is more important? I will leave that question unanswered.
OK, I did get a little offended but no problem. I think it is even more difficult to drive a high powered car at an equivalent g-sum because your time base is quicker and the driver has more controls to deal with (a big right foot). Me being faster than a lower powered car says nothing about my driving ability (or the other drivers). Me keeping a higher average g-sum than the other driver possibly says something. If my car is easier to drive at the limit, then my higher g-sum is no big deal. If my car is harder to drive at the limit, then it would say I’m a better driver.
944, the data should show who's line is faster. If you want me to look at the data for you I will. No charge.
This is just one example. Maybe your g-sum max is 1g (as you have stated), what I propose is that other drivers may be able to achieve 1.1g with your car.
Mitch, the g-sum limit on the car (neglecting aero effects which are small in our cars), is a matter of physics, and is relatively constant at 1.0 to possible 1.05 in my car on those tires. You can test this on a skid pad and by collecting data on the track just before you skid. Since I skid, or slide at too high a slip angle often, while I am learning my car (and because I am not a great driver I make many mistakes), I know very well what this number is. There is not much any driver can do to change this number. The driver can change the line, but not that capability of the car. That is precisely why the g sum concept is so valuable. It tells the driver how close he is to driving the car at it’s limits.
I have many downfalls, but mostly I need seat time. You may use DAS, I use my senses.
I do my best to use my senses also, in the very limited track time I get. I use the DAS to make most efficient/productive use of that time, and I believe it is a phenomenal tool if you can understand it.
There is no substitute for HP and seat time, you have one.
True.
I never said that DAS is worthless. I never said that you wouldn't learn anything from your instructors (although I remember a thread where you ranted about your inept instructor) either. What I say is that when you make statemements like
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorchange
You can't exit much faster than that along that line.
I get offended. I'm sorry but I can't believe that a more experienced driver couldn't do it better on the same line, in your car. DAS is useful but is not infallable.
You shouldn’t get offended. If I am driving the car near it’s limits on that line, no one else could do much better … on that line. Again, that is probably not the best line. If you have a high g-sum, your doing as well as you can along that line. Simple physics, not bragging or anything else when you have the data to back it up.
Sorry if I offended you but many folks here have been doing this for a long time and have seen these kinds of drivers come and go.
The reason I suggest a slower car to learn in is because it forces you to learn how to wring every last drop of speed out of your car just to keep up. Could DAS help me? Surely. Will more seat time help me, definately. Which is more important? I will leave that question unanswered.
OK, I did get a little offended but no problem. I think it is even more difficult to drive a high powered car at an equivalent g-sum because your time base is quicker and the driver has more controls to deal with (a big right foot). Me being faster than a lower powered car says nothing about my driving ability (or the other drivers). Me keeping a higher average g-sum than the other driver possibly says something. If my car is easier to drive at the limit, then my higher g-sum is no big deal. If my car is harder to drive at the limit, then it would say I’m a better driver.
944, the data should show who's line is faster. If you want me to look at the data for you I will. No charge.
08-12-2004, 07:24 PM
#59
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Sorry but I can't help but comment... I tried hard to keep silent, but this was too much...
The question is, why would anyone want to?
If there ever was a case for GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) this is one. The path to speed in performance driving is to consistently place the car in a precise position on the track (i.e. drive "the" line). Not that I would expect differently from anyone with similar lack of experience, but your posted vid graphically illustrates that you can't do that. To then use the data collected from laps of compound errors to 1) support your claim of superior driving ability (albeit, "on that line") and/or 2) attempt to use it to analize the efficiency of one line over another when you don't appear to be able to repeat either is just plain silly.
It's like saying that I have mastered driving because I have data showing me achieving the highest theoretically possible G-Sum on an early-apex line that propells me right into a tree...
BTW, you don't have a gingival smile do you?
Originally Posted by ColorChange
If I am driving the car near it’s limits on that line, no one else could do much better … on that line.
If there ever was a case for GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) this is one. The path to speed in performance driving is to consistently place the car in a precise position on the track (i.e. drive "the" line). Not that I would expect differently from anyone with similar lack of experience, but your posted vid graphically illustrates that you can't do that. To then use the data collected from laps of compound errors to 1) support your claim of superior driving ability (albeit, "on that line") and/or 2) attempt to use it to analize the efficiency of one line over another when you don't appear to be able to repeat either is just plain silly.
It's like saying that I have mastered driving because I have data showing me achieving the highest theoretically possible G-Sum on an early-apex line that propells me right into a tree...
BTW, you don't have a gingival smile do you?
