Is the sport in trouble
10-20-2022, 02:50 PM
#226
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85 Gold- we havent had a rate increase in 8 years but that will change for next year unfortunately
DTMiller- great question right now I am just talking about Physical Damage DE insurance. The rates on promotors and tracks insurance are separate liability coverages so they aren't as affected. I will say though that has incidents go up the likelihood of injury can go up and insurance issues could arise.
DTMiller- great question right now I am just talking about Physical Damage DE insurance. The rates on promotors and tracks insurance are separate liability coverages so they aren't as affected. I will say though that has incidents go up the likelihood of injury can go up and insurance issues could arise.
Peter
10-20-2022, 02:56 PM
#227
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Steve113 - Covid “fog” extends alway beyond track driving:
All drivers have seemed to have lost their driving ability. Nobody can park a car between the lines.
People “in general” have gone stupid. (Except of course Rennlist people) 😁
All drivers have seemed to have lost their driving ability. Nobody can park a car between the lines.
People “in general” have gone stupid. (Except of course Rennlist people) 😁
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10-20-2022, 04:31 PM
#229
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Guys I can tell you now DE is in jeopardy
There seems to be a terrible trend of wrecking cars in DE and thinking is ok. The sanctioning bodies and clubs all have to come together in figure out a plan. Its an epidemic of crashes not only insured ones but uninsured as well. The incident rate is wayyyyy higher than anyone would believe or want to know.
I call it driving in a Covid Fog
People are just plainly forgetting the basics of driving on track:
1) Turning in to early running out of room on exit. Either hitting the barrier or yanking it back on from the grass and hitting the inside barrier.
2) overcooking the turn all together carrying way way too much speed for their talent. We call this running out of talent
3) cold tires - trying to go to fast way to early.
4) buying cars after Covid that are way too fast for their talent leading to way to steep a learning curve
5) way to distracted during the day at an event just not able to focus when on track
Already have insurance programs that have pulled out totally from DE , some that no longer insure daily events only annuals and some that limit tracks
The writing is on the wall. If you want the sport the thrive, we need to figure out what we can do to limit accidents. Bad things can happen beyond car damage too just like a street accident people and get hurt and worse. There was just an accident where somebody was killed. How many people will not track their cars when there's no coverage available????
I laugh at 13/13 rules in racing for bumper to bumper contact but nothing if you total a car in DE.
Just think about all the people that will not do DE if there was no insurance. Well, the writing is on the wall unless we do something now to change the way we teach and the mentality of the participant.
There are people that still feel crashing is a part of DE and if they don't lose it sometimes, they aren't pushing it hard enough. Ridicules thinking
Any good Racer knows you first have to finish a race in order to win a race. Since DE is certainly NOT a race and there are no talent scouts watching offering F1 rides to the fastest DE driver I think it should be a very easy thing to finish a DE session without crashing
Oh and by the way this issue is not just limited to DE . Street insurance companies are also getting crushed with accident frequency on the street as well. Most of your rates will be going up next year for your primary auto insurance as well.
Sorry guys but my post was longggg overdue if there is any DE promotors out there I would love to hear from you and help design ways to make our sport safer it can be done
There seems to be a terrible trend of wrecking cars in DE and thinking is ok. The sanctioning bodies and clubs all have to come together in figure out a plan. Its an epidemic of crashes not only insured ones but uninsured as well. The incident rate is wayyyyy higher than anyone would believe or want to know.
I call it driving in a Covid Fog
People are just plainly forgetting the basics of driving on track:
1) Turning in to early running out of room on exit. Either hitting the barrier or yanking it back on from the grass and hitting the inside barrier.
2) overcooking the turn all together carrying way way too much speed for their talent. We call this running out of talent
3) cold tires - trying to go to fast way to early.
4) buying cars after Covid that are way too fast for their talent leading to way to steep a learning curve
5) way to distracted during the day at an event just not able to focus when on track
Already have insurance programs that have pulled out totally from DE , some that no longer insure daily events only annuals and some that limit tracks
The writing is on the wall. If you want the sport the thrive, we need to figure out what we can do to limit accidents. Bad things can happen beyond car damage too just like a street accident people and get hurt and worse. There was just an accident where somebody was killed. How many people will not track their cars when there's no coverage available????
I laugh at 13/13 rules in racing for bumper to bumper contact but nothing if you total a car in DE.
Just think about all the people that will not do DE if there was no insurance. Well, the writing is on the wall unless we do something now to change the way we teach and the mentality of the participant.
There are people that still feel crashing is a part of DE and if they don't lose it sometimes, they aren't pushing it hard enough. Ridicules thinking
Any good Racer knows you first have to finish a race in order to win a race. Since DE is certainly NOT a race and there are no talent scouts watching offering F1 rides to the fastest DE driver I think it should be a very easy thing to finish a DE session without crashing
Oh and by the way this issue is not just limited to DE . Street insurance companies are also getting crushed with accident frequency on the street as well. Most of your rates will be going up next year for your primary auto insurance as well.
Sorry guys but my post was longggg overdue if there is any DE promotors out there I would love to hear from you and help design ways to make our sport safer it can be done
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10-20-2022, 04:32 PM
#230
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I said it in another thread, and I'll say it here. When drivers accept crashing as an expectation or "not a big deal" - it's no longer a question of "if" but rather "when" they will crash. There are myriad things that contribute to whether one has an accident. Most of them are under the driver's control. And even those that aren't, actually are at least in part. Mindset/attitude play a huge part.
10-21-2022, 02:42 PM
#231
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I said it in another thread, and I'll say it here. When drivers accept crashing as an expectation or "not a big deal" - it's no longer a question of "if" but rather "when" they will crash. There are myriad things that contribute to whether one has an accident. Most of them are under the driver's control. And even those that aren't, actually are at least in part. Mindset/attitude play a huge part.
I came into this hobby/sport with limited disposable funds. To the first order, I work/worked on all my own rides. I now have more funds and some of my toys are more expensive -- but I know mentally the thought of spending MY $$/time makes me conservative.
I do know I learn by mistakes -- but that's also why I drove a 924S race car and a cheap Boxster for years. It meant my mistakes were more likely to be at lower speeds and either catchable or with limited consequences.
Most of my SPB colleagues know they're likely to not get a lot of resistance if they stick a nose into a corner. It's just not worth it to me.
I'd rather spend my time and money on my next event -- rather than "paying" for the previous one.
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10-21-2022, 03:27 PM
#232
I recently did a vintage race and I was surprised by how aggressive drivers were. Perhaps my #30 RSR looked like a nice target. Keeping emotions in check goes a long way towards better car control.
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10-21-2022, 03:53 PM
#233
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Vintage and historic racing has been used for decades as a on-track role model for a wide variety of club racing platforms. But even that has changed as a desirable benchmark.
The explosion of popularity that occurred between the late Seventies and the early Eighties when it was the Wild West, was driven mostly by the fact that a lot of different cars and drivers were running in few groups.
From the mid Eighties to mid Nineties, there was much more emphasis put on racing clean and avoiding contact incidents.
As vintage racing groups proliferated (up to 35+ different groups nationwide), the standards lessened, mostly because of competition for entries.
Everything you say is true, George. Most do their best to avoid contact by retaining control of their emotions, making sure their reach does not exceed their grasp.
Be careful out there!
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10-21-2022, 04:03 PM
#234
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I also think mixing vintage with the other groups builds a different vibe than a pure vintage weekend. It changes to much more racing than racing/appreciation.
10-21-2022, 04:38 PM
#235
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The big for-profit organizers like HSR and SVRA have already been less vintage and more big-tent than volunteer clubs for more than a decade.
Every one of the 35-plus vintage sanctioning body/event organizer/marque club has different eligibility rules, tire rules and contact rules.
VARA is very different from CSRG is very different from SOVREN in the West. VSCDA is very different than CVAR in the middle of the country.
The East has an even greater contrast, between VSCCA in the Northeast (major pre-World War II car contingent, if not drivers! 😂
and HRG to VRG in the Mid Atlantic and VDCA in the Southeast.Pretty wide variations between each group. Not like PCA/BMWCCA CR or SCCA/NASA, which use rulebooks nationally to govern regional competition.
10-21-2022, 04:40 PM
#236
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I would say some of it has changed as the definition of vintage has changed.
The vintage race groups have given the drivers another playground were they act like they do everywhere else.
I also think mixing vintage with the other groups builds a different vibe than a pure vintage weekend. It changes to much more racing than racing/appreciation.
The vintage race groups have given the drivers another playground were they act like they do everywhere else.
I also think mixing vintage with the other groups builds a different vibe than a pure vintage weekend. It changes to much more racing than racing/appreciation.
10-21-2022, 04:51 PM
#237
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I recall having 13/13 rules at our de’s. Not crashing twice in a year is a pretty low bar, but an occasional driver sat out 13 months.
Anyone know the statistics about how many crashing drivers are recidivists?
Anyone know the statistics about how many crashing drivers are recidivists?
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ProCoach (10-21-2022)
10-21-2022, 06:54 PM
#238
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Now, THAT would help a lot in the current culture of DE's. I can't see the for-profit groups doing this, but if there were information sharing among Regions that so-and-so hit the guardrail at The Glen, was headed to VIR where they hit a guardrail a couple months (or up to 13 months later), that would establish a pattern of behavior.
I think people who run events are naturally conflict averse. They don't want to park people because they wouldn't want to be parked themselves.
But most people who have the most incidents have more than one (my experience over thirty-five years). If those incidents can be tracked (which is what the insurance companies do), than the risk can be controlled.
Just my .02
I REALLY believe in what @stownsen914 has so eloquently expressed. It's the essence of how we'll all be able to improve the situation.
Unfortunately, @Steve113 has the data and has expressed repeatedly the same challenges I have been observing, particularly since March 2020 in DE's, track days and in club racing.
Most of my pro racing clients are lamenting the same thing...
I think people who run events are naturally conflict averse. They don't want to park people because they wouldn't want to be parked themselves.
But most people who have the most incidents have more than one (my experience over thirty-five years). If those incidents can be tracked (which is what the insurance companies do), than the risk can be controlled.
Just my .02
I REALLY believe in what @stownsen914 has so eloquently expressed. It's the essence of how we'll all be able to improve the situation.
Unfortunately, @Steve113 has the data and has expressed repeatedly the same challenges I have been observing, particularly since March 2020 in DE's, track days and in club racing.
Most of my pro racing clients are lamenting the same thing...
10-21-2022, 07:26 PM
#239
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10-21-2022, 08:18 PM
#240
