Oddjob

This had been mentioned in other threads, but I wanted to address it directly once more. For those (if any) of you that have had problems with premature cording inner/outer shoulders on their S04s (premature meaning a day or less of track/DE use):

Apparently the 285/30/18 tire is the one size that is most susceptible to this problem. I have heard through the grape vine that the initial run of these tires were molded with the cords too close to the shoulder seam (leading to the premature cording on inner and outer edges), but I do not have any verification or acknowledgement of that from Hoosier or their reps.

I have seen some correspondence that indicates that Hoosier is stating the new S04s need to run higher tire pressures (2-4 psi) than the S03s, they are more sensitive to rim width, and may need more negative camber.

However the problems that we were seeing at a DE event a couple wknds ago, were that cars aligned for S03s were wearing out the inside edge of the tire, so more camber would make that problem worse. One car corded both the inside and outside edge of a rear tire.

I have heard through a distributor that Hoosier is not acknowledging much, if any, problem with the new tires. The statement was made to him, that the 285s are not designed or meant to be used on the rear of a Porsche, they were made for front end applications on Corvettes and Vipers. This seems like a poor argument for a couple reasons. First, Hoosier never let this be known to anyone in any literature that I have seen (I received an S03 Tire Care Pamphlet when I purchased a set of S04s); a lot of PCA’ers have been running 285s (SO3s) for several years with no similar problems; the weight dist/cornering forces between a 911 and a 944 are significantly different, yet both types of cars are cording the tires in the same way. I cant believe the load on the inside edge of a rear tire of a 944 is greater than the edges on the front tire of a much heavier Viper or Corvette under braking and turn-in.

Also, my understanding is that Hoosier is stating they have not received a significant number of complaints to justify acknowledging/reviewing this as a tire problem.

I am disappointed if this is truly their position. The S04s were being advertised and sold as an improvement in durability and consistency over the S03s, but what I have experienced with others, is that they are more fragile than the predecessor.

I have to believe that PCA Club Racing and DE drivers purchase enough Hoosier R compound tires to make up a recognizable share of the market. I would think that Hoosier would want to make tires that work on many/all Porsche applications, front or rear.

For others that have used the S04s, I would like to know what your experiences are (good/bad), and the tire sizing. If you have had cording problems, I would also recommend you contact your local distributor and Hoosier directly (www.hoosiertire.com).

SkipSauls

I ran 285/30-18s on the rear of my car at the Las Vegas Club Race last weekend and corded the inside edges, just as described. This was after 4 sessions on Friday and two on Saturday, with a spin in the 2nd session after the tires became quite slick after the cording. I was not at all impressed with this performance, which was far worse than I ever had with the R3S03s.

I put a set of 275/35-18 R3S03s on and ran one more session on Saturday and four on Sunday, including two races that were harder than the practice sessions on the R3S04s. The R3S03s are showing no more than the expected amount of wear, although my times were 1-2 seconds off.

Better times are obviously great for qualifying and racing, but the R3S04s don't appear to be a good value otherwise. It certainly seems to contradict Hoosier's claims that the R3S04s would last longer due to the construction and resulting heavier weight.

I think I'll look into slicks as I'm not happy with the new Hoosiers so far.

bob_dallas

FWIW, I was told this same thing several years ago when I considered running Hoosier S03s on my 996. I know a lot of people have been using them but I thought it was interesting that the same argument raised it's head again.

Mark in Denver

Skip,

When are you going to update your Avatar?

Regarding the S04's: In Spec Miata circles there is a belief that you must heat cycle them on track and let them sit for 2 weeks (supposedly the advice of a Hoosier rep). People that are doing that are having dramatically better results than people that don't.

Mark

SkipSauls

2 weeks? That's absurd, and Hoosier is nuts if they think that anyone can realistically do this. If true, they should be heat-cycling them and letting them sit before shipping them to customers. The Hoosier truck at Las Vegas certainly didn't have any of that information, and there were plenty of folks just plopping the tires on and running immediately or after the standard 24 hour wait.

I'll work on the avatar. The new car has such a wacky paint job that it might look a bit silly in small sizes...

Dbltime

SKIP? Whats up with the avatar water pumper? Are you sleeping around on your GT2 girl? Seek counciling. The 996 Cup is a wonderful car but... hey hasn't ole yeller been good to you? I think you have an obligation to the 993 board to retain the GT2/RSR avatar.
envious in annapolis

Bill L Seifert

I have never heard of the 2 weeks stuff. I bought a set of 225-45-15s the first of March. They were heat cycled by Tire Rack, not on the track. I guess they set for a couple of weeks, because my first race was at St. Louis the last weekend of March. I ran two sessions, one qualifying, one race. Then I went to Rennsport II and ran 4 sessions. two practice, one qualifying and one 8 lap race. The tires looked like any other tires I have used, Hoosier, Kuhomo, Toyo, etc. for 6 20 minute sessions. I realize my tires are not the size mentioned above, but they have worn about as much as any other tire I have used.

The only tire I have been impressed with for longevity was the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. We used them at an enduro last summer, and I think we could have run all 10 hours on one set. (We used two sets, and each set was less than half used up at the finish.)

I will probably buy so4's the next time I buy tires, but please keep this thread going, as I would like to see as many experiences as I can.

Bill Seifert

1983 944 Race car (SCCA)

Glen

What sort of pressures were seen cold and hot on those cord failures please.

NJ-GT

A fellow autocrosser corded his front ones in his 2nd auto-x (sharing his car in the 2nd auto-x). I'm a witness on that.

He was looking for alignment problems, but his car is stock with just a set of aftermarket shocks (E46 M3). A3S04 in 245/35R18 and 275/35R18.

Pretty dissapointing, $500 plus per auto-x.

Oddjob

I was running 36 psi cold, and 42-44 psi hot on the rears that corded.

JC in NY

You guys have me nervous. I just got a set of the R3S04's (245/275x18) and I am not looking forward to cording them quickly. Argh.

The two week wait time after the initial scrubbing must be a mistake or misunderstanding.

Glen

Hoosier is now stating they want to see pressures of 48-50 hot with these....seems pretty high.....

Carrera51

I ran the S04s at the Rennsport Reunion as well. I used them in the first practice session, then removed them to let them sit overnight. I didn't notice any cording issues when I inspected the tires after each run and when I put the car on the trailer. I am running 225-45-17s in front and 245-40-17s in the rear on an 84 Carrera. According to the pamphlet that came with the tires, for my car's weight they recommend 42-46psi hot.

I found that they seemed to improve with each run session (though that could be due to the fact that I was getting more familiar with them each session after 2 years on the MPSCs. I decided to try the new Hoosiers to see what they are like and to see if Hoosier's claim of them being a longer lasting tire are true. I was very happy with how my car handled on them.

If it turns out that there is a a problem with the construction of the R3S04s, then I hope Hoosier handles it as well as Khumo did with their 710 (based on the posts here).

Euro RS

I'm a new forum member who wanted to add some additional commentary regarding this topic as it is clearly a problem that Hoosier must address to ensure public safety.

HOOSIER WOES
I'm a PCA Racer who runs a 964RS Clubsport in D Class and who used to run Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires with great success. While I was in the minority of guys not using Hoosier's, I also got double the lifespan out of my tires and sacrificed maybe 1 second/lap in overall speed but benefited from the consistency of wear and grip in all conditions with the Pilot's (I won my class at Mosport last Summer in 2 inches of standing rain). Anyway, I bought my first set of Hoosier RS03's in October 2003 to race at Hallett and was frustrated with the immense amount of conflicting information on tire pressures ranging from 36 hot - 42 hot depending on which tire reseller I spoke with. For my 964 running at 2770 lbs. the SO3's ran best at 39-40 hot. My wear on the SO3's has been consistent across the tread with no signs of premature wear -- other than the fact that Hoosier's simply don't last very long, hence are a questionable investment for racers on a budget.

My local dealer (Bobby Archer Motorworks) raved about the SO4's and so I purchased a set for the March 2004 PCA Club Race at TWS (Texas). On the first practice session at TWS, a front tire incurred a tread separation in the tread channel and had to be replaced at the track. I put a total of 2 sessions on this set of 4 tires (18" 245's front & 285's rear). I then raced at Road Atlanta 2 weeks later and put another 3-4 sessions on the tires and experienced excellent grip. However, at the end of that weekend a 285 corded on the inside about 1" from the inside tire edge. My car is only running about 2 degrees of negative camber and the SO3's did not have this problem after 3X the session time. I then go to Daytona/Rennsport with the SO4's but couldn't trust them on a super speedway at 175mph+, so I ran the old SO3's (although the tread was wearing low.) On the car haul from Daytona to Laguna Seca, I passed back through Dallas to pick up another 285 (replacement) from Bobby Archer Motorworks. I get out to Laguna and after a couple practice sessions the other 285 rear tire cords in exactly the same location as the first one. So at this point, I've had 3 out of the 4 tires (1 front, 2 rear) cord in less than 7-8 total sessions.

WASTE OF MONEY
All total, I have spent $1,600 in 5 tires plus mounting/balancing fees to get a single set of tires that can last 8-12 sessions and still haven't been able to do it. What's worse is I spent thousands of dollars to race at these 4 tracks and lost class wins in all of them (including spins at Daytona & Laguna) due to tire issues. Thanks to Hoosier, the first half of my PCA race season has been a waste of time/money -- including the memorable Rennsport event.

RESOLUTION?
Bobby Archer is a good guy and they are trying to "work something out" with Hoosier but its clear to the PCA members that I've spoken with that Hoosier has a MAJOR problem with the SO4's as it relates to Porsche mounting/wear. While the problem is largely with the 285's, remember that I had a 245/18 separate also. For additional reference points, there are a couple of top C Class drivers (Jim Cherry, Chris Cervelli) who have experienced the identical problems with the 285's in both the 964 and 993 chassis cars with different camber settings, etc. -- so this is not isolated to a specific chassis or set-up. My plan is to return Pilot Sport Cups (235/18 front with 10mm spacer & 285/18 rear).

While the SO4's are faster, they are not safe and the cost of a tire separating (let alone the trackside frustration each week) is not worth the risk. Its times like these that I miss the old BGF R1's for $700/set!!!

Later.

Greg Fishman

I ran the S04's at Daytona for the first time. I had no issues or abnormal wear. I bumped the cold pressures up a couple pounds and did a specific alignment for Daytona (less negative camber in the rear).

I do run 305's so maybe the problem is with the 285's but then Steve gives some antedotal evidence that his 245's had problems.
I plan to run at Barber in June, using the two sets I bought for Daytona. Hopefully they will be fine, and maybe by then Hoosier will give us more feedback and get some resolution to this problem.