Hoosier S04 Cording Issues
05-28-2004, 12:37 AM
#63
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JC - I'd be watching your tires like a hawk for signs of cording as you're probably right at the limit with them. It seems as though 100 miles is the magic number where many begin to cord.
Check out the other threads on this issue under the Racing section of Rennlist because apparently Hoosier issued a lame release on their website in the past couple days indicating a problem may exist but they're basically leaving it up to the tire buyers to figure it out based on individual car set-ups. Sounds pretty cowardly as if we (consumer) are going to be funding their R&D.
Check out the other threads on this issue under the Racing section of Rennlist because apparently Hoosier issued a lame release on their website in the past couple days indicating a problem may exist but they're basically leaving it up to the tire buyers to figure it out based on individual car set-ups. Sounds pretty cowardly as if we (consumer) are going to be funding their R&D.
05-31-2004, 09:58 AM
#64
Three Wheelin'
I run a lot smaller SO4 tires than most of the rest of you. (225-45-15) I just got back from the SCCA race at Memphis, and I chorded two SO4's. The first one chorded on heat cycle 7, and the second chorded on cycle 9. But they were pretty greasy by then. The first one chorded had a pressure problem, it was losing about a pound every 1/2 hour, so I am not sure I had it set right when I went out for cycle 7 where it chorded. Several of the Mazda guys had chorded S04's,(Same size as mine) and at least one is going to Toyo's.
One question for you Rennlisters. Four of my heat cycles were at Rennsport II. Is Daytona hard on tires? To me it looks like it should not be too hard on tires. Especially for a 160 hp 944, because the banking is just a real long straight for me. If it is easy on tires, I am a little disapointed about the wear on the S04's. I use 225-45-15's, they are real wide, and I love the lower gearing they give me, But I can't afford $300 per race for tires. I am seriously thinking of going to the MPSC's. The wear is great, and I have heard that one guy had his fastest lap on his 28'th heat cycle. I do have to use 225-50-15, so I lose a little of the low gearing, buy, the savings would be great.
Anyway, please comment,
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
One question for you Rennlisters. Four of my heat cycles were at Rennsport II. Is Daytona hard on tires? To me it looks like it should not be too hard on tires. Especially for a 160 hp 944, because the banking is just a real long straight for me. If it is easy on tires, I am a little disapointed about the wear on the S04's. I use 225-45-15's, they are real wide, and I love the lower gearing they give me, But I can't afford $300 per race for tires. I am seriously thinking of going to the MPSC's. The wear is great, and I have heard that one guy had his fastest lap on his 28'th heat cycle. I do have to use 225-50-15, so I lose a little of the low gearing, buy, the savings would be great.
Anyway, please comment,
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
05-31-2004, 07:59 PM
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Bill - living in Dallas, we've got the Texas Motor Speedway track in our "backyard" and we club race it each year (Parade to be held there.) Granted, Daytona is a longer oval (2.5 mile vs. 1.5 mile, if I'm correct) thus, I may reach 155mph at TMS vs. the 180mph I reached at Daytona, but considering we get 100+ degree days in July, I'd say the heat in the tire is fairly comparable. I've run MPSC's at TMS with great luck (even wear, predictable pressure expansion, etc.) I ran 205/17 and 255/17 (showroom stock) tires last year just to prove a point that I could win D class without the wider tires. The MPSC's ran great. I just mounted my 235/18 and 285/18 MPSC's for Watkins Glen next week and I plan to race the same tires at Parade and expect them to do just fine. I got 4 race weekends out of MPSC's last year -- believe it or not for $1,000 invested.
Just something to think about. I have heard that it might be advisable to tinker with camber at Daytona because the banking is more severe than TMS (and most other ovals) but we only ran 2 sesions/day at Rennsport so I didn't really think we would be putting enough miles on them to change my suspension for the sake of 1 weekend. I have a hard time buying the fact that Daytona is that severe on tires because Oliver Zitzmann (one of the top E class drivers nationally) ran the MPSC's at sub 2:10's in his 964 C2 and had no problems -- and a sub-2:10 in a E car is flying!
Just something to think about. I have heard that it might be advisable to tinker with camber at Daytona because the banking is more severe than TMS (and most other ovals) but we only ran 2 sesions/day at Rennsport so I didn't really think we would be putting enough miles on them to change my suspension for the sake of 1 weekend. I have a hard time buying the fact that Daytona is that severe on tires because Oliver Zitzmann (one of the top E class drivers nationally) ran the MPSC's at sub 2:10's in his 964 C2 and had no problems -- and a sub-2:10 in a E car is flying!
05-31-2004, 08:28 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
Steve,
I guess I will get the MPSC's. You know I kinda have an unreasonable predujice against Michelin. About 35 years ago, I did an awful lot of flying helicopters on the Michelin Rubber Plantation in Vietnam. Because we were supposedly protecting their rubber trees, and France was no longer there, I swore I would never buy Michelin's. Last year, my co-driver bought the Michelins, and I rationalized that was not like me buying them. Also, BF Goodrich is part of Michelin, and I used them for years. So, to heck with it, anyway it was a stupid war.
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
I guess I will get the MPSC's. You know I kinda have an unreasonable predujice against Michelin. About 35 years ago, I did an awful lot of flying helicopters on the Michelin Rubber Plantation in Vietnam. Because we were supposedly protecting their rubber trees, and France was no longer there, I swore I would never buy Michelin's. Last year, my co-driver bought the Michelins, and I rationalized that was not like me buying them. Also, BF Goodrich is part of Michelin, and I used them for years. So, to heck with it, anyway it was a stupid war.
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
05-31-2004, 09:49 PM
#68
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Originally posted by Euro RS
Daytona is a longer oval (2.5 mile vs. 1.5 mile, if I'm correct) thus, I may reach 155mph at TMS vs. the 180mph I reached at Daytona, but considering we get 100+ degree days in July, I'd say the heat in the tire is fairly comparable.
Daytona is a longer oval (2.5 mile vs. 1.5 mile, if I'm correct) thus, I may reach 155mph at TMS vs. the 180mph I reached at Daytona, but considering we get 100+ degree days in July, I'd say the heat in the tire is fairly comparable.
05-31-2004, 09:58 PM
#69
Three Wheelin'
Greg
Gee, you sure? I was going about 136 in a 160hp 944, and I think the way some of those 930/911/993 Turbos went by me was brutal, I would think they had 44 mph on me. I think Steve finished 38 positions ahead of me at Rennlist. I couldn't have seen him with binoculars.
Of course, my 136mph was by my speedometer, which admitedly could be off. It would be interesting to know our real speed.
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
Gee, you sure? I was going about 136 in a 160hp 944, and I think the way some of those 930/911/993 Turbos went by me was brutal, I would think they had 44 mph on me. I think Steve finished 38 positions ahead of me at Rennlist. I couldn't have seen him with binoculars.
Of course, my 136mph was by my speedometer, which admitedly could be off. It would be interesting to know our real speed.
Bill Seifert
1983 944 Race Car
05-31-2004, 10:10 PM
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Bill,
Yes I am sure about what the GT3RS's hit. My mechanic gears most of the 911's that run in GA and that he what he told me. My 993 hit about 155 going into the tri-oval. I calculated that by rpm and gear ratio vs. looking at the speedo (which can be way off). I was up in the front group and while I can't gauge the speed difference accurately I would be surprised if I was 30 mph faster than even the NA 944's.
The Daytona Prototypes are at 190 mph and the GT3RS's were noticeably slower on the banking.
Yes I am sure about what the GT3RS's hit. My mechanic gears most of the 911's that run in GA and that he what he told me. My 993 hit about 155 going into the tri-oval. I calculated that by rpm and gear ratio vs. looking at the speedo (which can be way off). I was up in the front group and while I can't gauge the speed difference accurately I would be surprised if I was 30 mph faster than even the NA 944's.
The Daytona Prototypes are at 190 mph and the GT3RS's were noticeably slower on the banking.
Last edited by Greg Fishman; 05-31-2004 at 10:54 PM.
06-01-2004, 03:00 AM
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Data point from a middle of the pack 44NA: achieved redline in 5th for extended periods on the 2-trioval stretch, indicated 142 on the speedo (matches the owners manual graphs) with stock transaxle, divided by 1.08 for the smaller diameter 225/45*15's gives 131+ actual. Did not hit the rev limiter, as goal was to return with machinery intact. According to rumor, other 44s regularly do 6500 / 6700 rpm, which would result in near 140. That's the 2.5's...
Would estimate a reasonable actual top for the 2.5 Na's at 135, to 140+ for the 2.7s..
Would estimate a reasonable actual top for the 2.5 Na's at 135, to 140+ for the 2.7s..
06-01-2004, 08:03 AM
#72
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corded 335's at sebring
Hi All
I was running 1 race old SO3's at Feb. Sebring Club race all day Thurs and 2 sessions Friday, They came off and looked fine. went out in Sprint on scufs and ran over some debris on a rear and cut it to the cord. Could not get SO3 so had to buy a full set of SO4s/ Ran these 5 laps to qualify and the 1.5 hr enduro. They were faster felt good. But on returning home and unpacking the car both rear 335/17" were corded on the inside edge apox 3/4 of an inch wide. My 275 fronts looked good
I ran -2.2 rear -2 front on a soft spring setup on for Sebring. The car weighs 2350. I have stacks of heat cycled out SO3 that I have run out to 25-30 sessions at DE's without issue
I was running 1 race old SO3's at Feb. Sebring Club race all day Thurs and 2 sessions Friday, They came off and looked fine. went out in Sprint on scufs and ran over some debris on a rear and cut it to the cord. Could not get SO3 so had to buy a full set of SO4s/ Ran these 5 laps to qualify and the 1.5 hr enduro. They were faster felt good. But on returning home and unpacking the car both rear 335/17" were corded on the inside edge apox 3/4 of an inch wide. My 275 fronts looked good
I ran -2.2 rear -2 front on a soft spring setup on for Sebring. The car weighs 2350. I have stacks of heat cycled out SO3 that I have run out to 25-30 sessions at DE's without issue
06-01-2004, 10:02 AM
#73
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After watching and posting on this thread, I took a close look at my Hoosiers this weekend when I finally pulled them off the car (I haven't even pulled the cover off after cleaning it up after getting home from Daytona). My S04s looked fine. No cord showing and the wear looked pretty even. Sizes 225-45-17 and 245-40-17. I guess time will tell since I only used them for 4 sessions at Daytona.
Needless to say, I am concerned about how long they will last, given what others have said here.
Needless to say, I am concerned about how long they will last, given what others have said here.
06-01-2004, 10:17 AM
#74
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A good friend of mine just purchased a great GT1S that runs on 17" Hoosier SO4.
I ran the the car for 2 fast qualifying speed sessions (a nice friend to let me do that), I then ran a third fast session with him in the passenger seat. He has since run another 12 sessions and they are still wearing even. Granted he is new to the car and is not pushing the car to its limits yet. But that is a lot of sessions. I am sure the tires dont grip like they did the first few sessions, but they still have enought rubber for probably 1 more track day... I think his rears are 335 30 17 or something close, not sure about his fronts...
So is this problem mainly limited to 18" and not affecting the 17" ?
The car is a 700HP GT1 turbo...
Did the fact that I really pushed the car on stickers maybe take some of the initial grip away which made them a little harder yielding longer life ?
Thx,
Norm
I ran the the car for 2 fast qualifying speed sessions (a nice friend to let me do that), I then ran a third fast session with him in the passenger seat. He has since run another 12 sessions and they are still wearing even. Granted he is new to the car and is not pushing the car to its limits yet. But that is a lot of sessions. I am sure the tires dont grip like they did the first few sessions, but they still have enought rubber for probably 1 more track day... I think his rears are 335 30 17 or something close, not sure about his fronts...
So is this problem mainly limited to 18" and not affecting the 17" ?
The car is a 700HP GT1 turbo...
Did the fact that I really pushed the car on stickers maybe take some of the initial grip away which made them a little harder yielding longer life ?
Thx,
Norm
06-01-2004, 04:25 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
Greg,
Boy, it sure seemed faster when y'all went by us. You finished 8th overall in our group, so I am fairly sure you lapped me. (It sure seemed that I got lapped by at least 8) I finished 75th overall, and Jerry Ljung finished 77th, so I guess (Hope) Jerry is right, I would feel ok about 131-135. I know my speedo read 136 at the flagstand, which is when I started getting ready to slow down for turn one. I didn't look at it after that.
Jerry, two questions: 1. How did they do classes at Rennsport II? I know we had similar cars, but were in different classes. The guy that won my class was in a 944S, and the rest of us were in 944 Regulars. The guy that won your class was in a 944S2, and the rest of you were in regular 944's like mine I never did figure that out. Question 2. How do you pronounce your name, my guess would be Lyung. Right?
Anyway, back to the S04's, I guess about 6-8 heat cycles is the best you can expect. I really think I am going to MPSC's.
Bill Seifert
Boy, it sure seemed faster when y'all went by us. You finished 8th overall in our group, so I am fairly sure you lapped me. (It sure seemed that I got lapped by at least 8) I finished 75th overall, and Jerry Ljung finished 77th, so I guess (Hope) Jerry is right, I would feel ok about 131-135. I know my speedo read 136 at the flagstand, which is when I started getting ready to slow down for turn one. I didn't look at it after that.
Jerry, two questions: 1. How did they do classes at Rennsport II? I know we had similar cars, but were in different classes. The guy that won my class was in a 944S, and the rest of us were in 944 Regulars. The guy that won your class was in a 944S2, and the rest of you were in regular 944's like mine I never did figure that out. Question 2. How do you pronounce your name, my guess would be Lyung. Right?
Anyway, back to the S04's, I guess about 6-8 heat cycles is the best you can expect. I really think I am going to MPSC's.
Bill Seifert