ProCoach

Yep, those are the ones.

Mark was lapping traffic, splitting two cars coming up to the finish and the car on his right touched Mark in the right rear with their left front.

This sent Mark off on a pretty severe cross angle, way off track and into the trees, where the car split in half and caught fire. He was not able to get out on his own and was in the fire for some time. Thank God, he survived and is recovering.

This type of accident has hurt/killed more than a few drivers and instructors (I think of CMP and that HyperDrive at the Jefferson Circuit a few years ago).

Certainly, track safety has improved, but fatalities at Lime Rock, Road Atlanta and at the Glen from drivers “pancaking” the side of their cars against guardrail or walls close to the track edge are also more common than one might think.

It’s not a pleasant subject. It is a dangerous sport. Be careful out there…

Matt Romanowski

They need barriers or protection in front of trees. There are a few tracks I don't drive at because when I see where I'm pushing and have potential to go off big, I can see the tree that I'm going to collect on my way off track. A tree isn't a safe barrier IMHO.

Everyone has their own risk tolerance. I don't mind walls and I'm the odd guy that at Watkins Glen, the only wall I ever notice is the outside of T3 as I transition to the apex. For the rest of the track, if you are looking in the right place, the walls don't matter.

Matt Romanowski

If you are going to tell Mark's story, it should be clear of what happened and in his words. - he was knocked out in the wreck and was pulled out by other drivers. The story is here https://rockthecurb.com/2021/11/mark...BuO6r8bJU8Jp_k

I'm not claiming to know all of the accidents that resulted in death at every track, but the majority of them that I know of started with a cardiac event, not an on track accident. Peel the onion.

ProCoach

NJMP Lightning has been in successful, insured operation for twelve-plus years.

Even the insurance companies don’t mandate the removal of all trees.

VIR cut back the treeline drivers left exit of South Bend (Turn 10) over 150 feet after Paul Gentilozzi’s accident practicing for Trans Am almost twenty years ago. People still hit and occasionally turn over on the tire wall in front of the treeline there.

You and I will have to disagree. Walls, trees, buildings, even tire bundles and TecPro are all hard stops, no matter where you look.

okie981

Good info in that article about safety equipment and systems.

Matt Romanowski

A tree is a very different thing to hit than a wall. Walls are different than tires, soft walls, and TecPro. There are big difference in the deceleration of a tree (point load), wall, or softer (tire, softwall, TecPro, etc) and how the car is folded up. In the end, everyone gets to pick their risk tolerance and drive where they want.

ProCoach

One of the best ways to enhance one’s ability to assess risk is to go racing. That expands and enhances knowledge in how better to assess risk, and make better, more informed decisions, in my experience.

In the end, it’s not a thread on a discussion board or an individual’s assessment of acceptable circuit safety that counts.

It’s the decision of the insurance underwriter of the track itself and, as you point out, a personal decision on not only whether to drive that track but also what level of intensity and risk management you practice while on the circuit in question.

fatbillybob

How much do you think incidents are related to horsepower? 1984 911 was 200hp and today 400hp. More power means faster and more force to dissipate in crashes more runoff needed to slow a car down.

85Gold

Balanced out by much better car crash construction. I have seen some pretty bad hits in the newer street cars where the driver opens the door and walks away.

Peter

Manifold

They physical safety of a track in terms of runoffs, barriers, etc. will tend to be better at tracks used for higher-end pro racing.

However, the perception of safety by drivers also influences safety. If a track appears to be safe (e.g., lots of runoff), drivers tend to push harder and take more risk, sometimes finding themselves in barriers they didn't know were there. Conversely, if a track has a reputation for being unsafe, based on lesser runoff and more visibility of barriers, drivers will tend to 'take less chances' and therefore less likelihood of hitting something.

The event organizer also has a big influence on driver behavior, and therefore safety.

I'm willing to go to just about any track, other than Dominion in VA.

ProCoach

Modern cars leave the paved surface a lot quicker, hence carry more force further into whatever they’re going to hit.

Bottom line is with the lesser powered cars, people had a lot more time to get out of trouble.

I think there was a benefit to “analog” cars as learning environments, as well.

I don’t think crashing, especially in an HPDE environment, is inevitable. Period.

Veloce Raptor

+1 to your entire post

Hatzenbach

Let’s add Sonoma Raceway to the “not recommended” tracks: lots of concrete walls and several turns that are very unforgiven.
the best beginner track in the West is Thunderhill 3 mile IMHO.

TET GT3

Based on experience from this past weekend, I would caution those driving at Autoclub Speedway in SoCal. The track uses the infield road course along with about half of the Nascar oval. The transition from flat ground to the banking is quite abrupt at high speed which could cause loss of control, and allowing just anyone to get their cars up to such high speeds on a banked race track just feet from the barriers is a recipe for disaster. Years ago I recall them using at least one chicane on the straight to keep speeds down.
Entering a high speed turn at 155 mph and then sustaining ~120 mph gives one lots of time to think what would happen if a tire blows or anything in the suspension fails.

Steve113

"I don’t think crashing, especially in an HPDE environment, is inevitable. Period."

Agree 100% people have to get out of the mindset that crashing during DE is ok. This is DE unless there's a major mechanical issue its just NOT ok to crash.

For those that feel they only know they are on the limit if they exceed it and go off. Well this is just not true .

I think the organization's have to re approach the way they look at this in there programs and take notice as to the amount of crashes and realize something has to change. Club instructors have to realize that its never ok that there student crashed while he or she was being instructed. It also has to be noted if the so called instructor is crashing there own car is this really the instructor you want teaching others????

By the way just so everyone know 95% of the accidents are driver error of the basic fundamentals. 80% of the accidents are intermediate - advanced/instructors level - so if this is whose crashing and they are doing it by screwing up the basic fundamentals then what is that saying ???

Sorry I am just very passionate about the sport and its not good for the entry point into the sport have soo many incidents . It seems that since COVID drivers have gotten worse both on and off track - I call it Driving in a COVID Fog