"safest" and "least safe" tracks for HPDE
12-07-2021, 11:41 AM
#91
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^^This^^
Jabs, I’m not saying your region’s experience is not true. What I’m saying is that in the bigger picture, mechanical failures being the cause of damage is low on the totem pole and not super common, across the board. Very unusual.
Much more so is the cold brain/cold tires or been-entering-the-corner at this same speed for the whole event and all of a sudden, going to add six or ten miles per hour with the same control input timing and amplitude
THAT is the biggest cause I see (supporter by Steve’s and VR’s observations), as opposed to mechanicals.
If anything, the preponderance of new cars at DE events has lessened the chance for mechanicals to occur, in my experience.
Jabs, I’m not saying your region’s experience is not true. What I’m saying is that in the bigger picture, mechanical failures being the cause of damage is low on the totem pole and not super common, across the board. Very unusual.
Much more so is the cold brain/cold tires or been-entering-the-corner at this same speed for the whole event and all of a sudden, going to add six or ten miles per hour with the same control input timing and amplitude
THAT is the biggest cause I see (supporter by Steve’s and VR’s observations), as opposed to mechanicals.
If anything, the preponderance of new cars at DE events has lessened the chance for mechanicals to occur, in my experience.
The first session is mainly to warm up your tires, and get a feel for the track conditions, as well as how the car is handling. In my opinion, first session incidents are the most egregious as they speak to a lack of patience, as well as a lack of respect for the car and track. I hope its never me!
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Robert Nixon (12-08-2021)
12-07-2021, 11:45 AM
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To your point, I wonder what the number of first session incidents look like as a percentage of overall incidents?
The first session is mainly to warm up your tires, and get a feel for the track conditions, as well as how the car is handling. In my opinion, first session incidents are the most egregious as they speak to a lack of patience, as well as a lack of respect for the car and track. I hope its never me!
The first session is mainly to warm up your tires, and get a feel for the track conditions, as well as how the car is handling. In my opinion, first session incidents are the most egregious as they speak to a lack of patience, as well as a lack of respect for the car and track. I hope its never me!
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LuigiVampa (12-07-2021)
12-07-2021, 11:55 AM
#93
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Agreed.
LV, I think it's a high percentage. At least in the beginning of spring and the end of fall, at least down here, where the coefficient of friction between polished asphalt and painted or bare concrete curbs increases as the temps go down.
I'm profoundly saddened by the trend, confirmed by at least one leading insurer to restrict one-off coverage at tracks I love and hold dear (and had FAR fewer accidents resulting in damage than Road Atlanta, Indy and COTA than at those restricted tracks, even though I have thousands of laps at the Glen and tens of thousands at VIR).
I've always promoted the concept and ideal that driving on track, whether in track days, DE's or wheel-to-wheel competition, is the ULTIMATE in personal responsibility.
From the time Doc Bundy told a group of us instructors at the Road Atlanta School that ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, I have and continue to believe that to be true.
As a result, I keep maximum awareness, some margin until conditions are right and school myself on the best executions of fundamental skills and the topography of each track I drive. It's kept me safe and secure driving other people's cars, often exceeding millions and even tens of millions of dollars in value, while still going pretty quickly.
I do think people's destiny is, for the most part, in their hands... EVERY time they go out.
LV, I think it's a high percentage. At least in the beginning of spring and the end of fall, at least down here, where the coefficient of friction between polished asphalt and painted or bare concrete curbs increases as the temps go down.
I'm profoundly saddened by the trend, confirmed by at least one leading insurer to restrict one-off coverage at tracks I love and hold dear (and had FAR fewer accidents resulting in damage than Road Atlanta, Indy and COTA than at those restricted tracks, even though I have thousands of laps at the Glen and tens of thousands at VIR).
I've always promoted the concept and ideal that driving on track, whether in track days, DE's or wheel-to-wheel competition, is the ULTIMATE in personal responsibility.
From the time Doc Bundy told a group of us instructors at the Road Atlanta School that ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, I have and continue to believe that to be true.
As a result, I keep maximum awareness, some margin until conditions are right and school myself on the best executions of fundamental skills and the topography of each track I drive. It's kept me safe and secure driving other people's cars, often exceeding millions and even tens of millions of dollars in value, while still going pretty quickly.
I do think people's destiny is, for the most part, in their hands... EVERY time they go out.
__________________
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
12-07-2021, 01:05 PM
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Agreed.
LV, I think it's a high percentage. At least in the beginning of spring and the end of fall, at least down here, where the coefficient of friction between polished asphalt and painted or bare concrete curbs increases as the temps go down.
I'm profoundly saddened by the trend, confirmed by at least one leading insurer to restrict one-off coverage at tracks I love and hold dear (and had FAR fewer accidents resulting in damage than Road Atlanta, Indy and COTA than at those restricted tracks, even though I have thousands of laps at the Glen and tens of thousands at VIR).
I've always promoted the concept and ideal that driving on track, whether in track days, DE's or wheel-to-wheel competition, is the ULTIMATE in personal responsibility.
From the time Doc Bundy told a group of us instructors at the Road Atlanta School that ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, I have and continue to believe that to be true.
As a result, I keep maximum awareness, some margin until conditions are right and school myself on the best executions of fundamental skills and the topography of each track I drive. It's kept me safe and secure driving other people's cars, often exceeding millions and even tens of millions of dollars in value, while still going pretty quickly.
I do think people's destiny is, for the most part, in their hands... EVERY time they go out.
LV, I think it's a high percentage. At least in the beginning of spring and the end of fall, at least down here, where the coefficient of friction between polished asphalt and painted or bare concrete curbs increases as the temps go down.
I'm profoundly saddened by the trend, confirmed by at least one leading insurer to restrict one-off coverage at tracks I love and hold dear (and had FAR fewer accidents resulting in damage than Road Atlanta, Indy and COTA than at those restricted tracks, even though I have thousands of laps at the Glen and tens of thousands at VIR).
I've always promoted the concept and ideal that driving on track, whether in track days, DE's or wheel-to-wheel competition, is the ULTIMATE in personal responsibility.
From the time Doc Bundy told a group of us instructors at the Road Atlanta School that ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, I have and continue to believe that to be true.
As a result, I keep maximum awareness, some margin until conditions are right and school myself on the best executions of fundamental skills and the topography of each track I drive. It's kept me safe and secure driving other people's cars, often exceeding millions and even tens of millions of dollars in value, while still going pretty quickly.
I do think people's destiny is, for the most part, in their hands... EVERY time they go out.
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Matt Romanowski (12-07-2021)
12-07-2021, 01:11 PM
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It boils down to overconfidence, and it's well established that people are generally inherently overconfident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect
Key with DE is having the right level of confidence, not too little and not too much. Starting out taking it easy and getting everything warmed at the beginning of an event, day, and session is a good way to mitigate the tendency towards overconfidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect
Key with DE is having the right level of confidence, not too little and not too much. Starting out taking it easy and getting everything warmed at the beginning of an event, day, and session is a good way to mitigate the tendency towards overconfidence.
Last edited by Manifold; 12-07-2021 at 05:11 PM.
12-07-2021, 01:12 PM
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It boils down to overconfidence, and it's well established that people are generally inherently overconfident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect
Key with DE is having the right level of confidence, not too little and not too much. Starting out taking it easy and getting everything warmed at the beginning of an event, day, and session is a good way to mitigate the tendency towards of overconfidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect
Key with DE is having the right level of confidence, not too little and not too much. Starting out taking it easy and getting everything warmed at the beginning of an event, day, and session is a good way to mitigate the tendency towards of overconfidence.
Drive fast and take chances!!!!....
12-07-2021, 01:28 PM
#97
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My region (CVR) always start our first session on double yellow, and if it is really cold (such as Lime Rock or WGI in April or November) we do two laps under double yellow. We also remind people that it can take a bunch of laps to warm up their tires and stress taking it easy.
Beyond that, once someone straps in, it is up to them to listen to this advice.
12-07-2021, 01:36 PM
#98
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What Peter said in his post above . Especially "ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, "
I probably see more accidents then most people and I can tell you that the high majority of damage from spins or offs would have never happened if the individual was on the right line .
Trajectory of a vehicle on line allows the vehicle even if spinning a higher probability of not hitting anything . While being off line dramatically changes the angel of trajectory that will most of the time will increase likelihood of of hitting something. Majority of the time you would have spun or got into trouble if you were on line.
Not to come down on anyone but I laugh when a so called club instructors are out on track and they are so far off the line themselves . How can they be teaching fundamentals when they cant do it themselves . Not sure why people think its a feet game when its really an inches game. In a perfect world club level instructors should have a DE day where they are evaluated by the Pro level instructors (like some we have here ) on just the basic fundamentals that will make there driving better, more consistent and better instructors.
If you really really want to get better and be a better instructor work on perfecting the line. It all starts there .
I probably see more accidents then most people and I can tell you that the high majority of damage from spins or offs would have never happened if the individual was on the right line .
Trajectory of a vehicle on line allows the vehicle even if spinning a higher probability of not hitting anything . While being off line dramatically changes the angel of trajectory that will most of the time will increase likelihood of of hitting something. Majority of the time you would have spun or got into trouble if you were on line.
Not to come down on anyone but I laugh when a so called club instructors are out on track and they are so far off the line themselves . How can they be teaching fundamentals when they cant do it themselves . Not sure why people think its a feet game when its really an inches game. In a perfect world club level instructors should have a DE day where they are evaluated by the Pro level instructors (like some we have here ) on just the basic fundamentals that will make there driving better, more consistent and better instructors.
If you really really want to get better and be a better instructor work on perfecting the line. It all starts there .
Last edited by Steve113; 12-07-2021 at 05:41 PM.
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12-07-2021, 01:38 PM
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Try as we might we can't weed out 100% of the idiots, but I think it comes down to the way a track event is run and educating the driver.
My region (CVR) always start our first session on double yellow, and if it is really cold (such as Lime Rock or WGI in April or November) we do two laps under double yellow. We also remind people that it can take a bunch of laps to warm up their tires and stress taking it easy.
Beyond that, once someone straps in, it is up to them to listen to this advice.
My region (CVR) always start our first session on double yellow, and if it is really cold (such as Lime Rock or WGI in April or November) we do two laps under double yellow. We also remind people that it can take a bunch of laps to warm up their tires and stress taking it easy.
Beyond that, once someone straps in, it is up to them to listen to this advice.
For example, how about banning use of lap timers and cameras in instructed groups? Doing exercises driving off line in instructed groups? Focusing on runoff areas and emergency procedures during track walks? Having students point out the flag stations during the first lap of every session? Having students practice car control in safe areas of the track (low speed, lots of runoff) when no car is behind?
12-07-2021, 02:24 PM
#100
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That might have been the norm for pre-March 2020, certainly WAY low for post-March 2020, in my experience.
I think three crashes is a pretty good event for 140-175 cars. Hell, you ought to see the casualty count at a Club race!
I'm seeing 240-270 car events now. Still more crashes first session of the first day and second day, as well as end of the day. Still mostly top experience groups.
I think three crashes is a pretty good event for 140-175 cars. Hell, you ought to see the casualty count at a Club race!
I'm seeing 240-270 car events now. Still more crashes first session of the first day and second day, as well as end of the day. Still mostly top experience groups.
I agree with most of the above. We were at a recent events at Road Atlanta and Road America and the number of McLarens , GT3s , and high powered mustangs etc in the novice group was impressive. I have never seen so many high powered cars being driven by novices in years past.
As for the original topic, another vote for Road Atlanta as a track that leads to costly mistakes. Friend of a friend, about 3yrs back, pushed his MPSS a little too far coming out of T12 but walked away uninjured and with a fantastic picture to remember the moment by:
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12-07-2021, 03:19 PM
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To Steve's point: I would LOVE to have the opportunity, along with Peter and Seth and a few other pro coaches here, to evaluate DE instructors. I see the exact same things when I am coaching in a DE environment. In addition, it seems that way too many people actually believe that Roger Penske is actively recruiting for new drivers at DE's.
12-07-2021, 03:22 PM
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To Steve's point: I would LOVE to have the opportunity, along with Peter and Seth and a few other pro coaches here, to evaluate DE instructors. I see the exact same things when I am coaching in a DE environment. In addition, it seems that way too many people actually believe that Roger Penske is actively recruiting for new drivers at DE's.
1st, get me on the line. 2nd, get me on the line. 3rd, give me some speed secrets once on the line. 4th, evaluate me as a driver. 5th, evaluate me as an instructor. 6th, get me on the line........
Sound good?
Last edited by dgrobs; 12-07-2021 at 03:23 PM.
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12-07-2021, 04:26 PM
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What Peter said in his post above. Especially "ANYTHING that happened was YOUR fault, "
I probably see more accidents then most people and I can tell you that the high majority of damage from spins or offs would have never happened if the individual was on the right line.
Not sure why people think its a feet game when its really an inches game.
I probably see more accidents then most people and I can tell you that the high majority of damage from spins or offs would have never happened if the individual was on the right line.
Not sure why people think its a feet game when its really an inches game.
My entire coaching strategy focuses on deconstructing two main areas of a driver's performance.
It's not my opinion that guides us, it's observed driver/car performance, car placement and driver skill execution.
The first is validation of line (chosen path around the track), use of the full width of the track (or not), consistency of chosen (and unchosen, as speed rises) path, validating the proper car heading EVERY couple feet of forward travel and finally, adaptation to the track's topography (where the track helps or hurts the trajectory of the car).
The second is a validation of the best execution of fundamental skills. Generally, after the line, going on to maximize the fore/aft axis efficiency (brakes/gas).
Best (and proven) use of WOT, quickest transition from WOT to braking (without upsetting the car), high decel rates that are consistent throughout, release (the ending, however long) of brakes, governing the transition to maximum lateral cornering, accelerating AGAINST the tractive limit of the driven tires.
I can't overstate how important your final (in bold) sentence is.
The reason why even experienced, "advanced" and instructor level folks think this is a "feet" game is because, at the speeds they're going, it can be and they can get away with it. They think they're ok, so on to the next control input.
It's only when they suddenly, abruptly, bump UP the speed that their glaring error and divarication from the line becomes apparent. Then, most compound their error in trajectory by adding power... "Thunk" turns into "BANG." Sometimes, "BANG...Bang..."
It's not a question of tenths, as Manifold points out, because the most competent drivers, both am and pro following an "inches" game, are consistently driving harder, quicker, but far more accurately AND CONSISTENTLY, in car placement.
They actually drive a little too hot into the corner, then "fix it" with micro corrections.
They use this accuracy and consistency as a check system to "fix it" if they go out of the desired trajectory. If it's it's too far out, they bail and then pick it back up right away, once the car is settled down. A passenger, even an experienced one, might not even see it while it's happening.
Some of us are fortunate enough to have worked with both young and older drivers (starting later in life) who have gone on to race IMSA, SRO, the Rolex 24, Sebring 12-Hour and even LeMans.
With the proper commitment, most drivers can become VERY competent in whatever venue they choose, be it track days, club days, DE or wheel to wheel. The processes are the same. The skill execution requirements to excel are the same. The emotional intelligence requirements to think strategically while managing a 3000 lb dance partner are the same.
I love this sport and so do many others. It's frustrating and immensely fulfilling, at the same time. I don't know the answers. The more I do it, the less I'm absolutely sure of anything.
But, there is NO reason why the incident rates should be so high in a non-competitive (or even competitive) venue. I tend to think the folks here on Rennlist are not the folks that need to hear all this...
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12-07-2021, 05:54 PM
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It's your business to, unfortunately, "see more accidents," so I put maximum credence in what you're saying and your statements of fact.
My entire coaching strategy focuses on deconstructing two main areas of a driver's performance.
It's not my opinion that guides us, it's observed driver/car performance, car placement and driver skill execution.
The first is validation of line (chosen path around the track), use of the full width of the track (or not), consistency of chosen (and unchosen, as speed rises) path, validating the proper car heading EVERY couple feet of forward travel and finally, adaptation to the track's topography (where the track helps or hurts the trajectory of the car).
The second is a validation of the best execution of fundamental skills. Generally, after the line, going on to maximize the fore/aft axis efficiency (brakes/gas).
Best (and proven) use of WOT, quickest transition from WOT to braking (without upsetting the car), high decel rates that are consistent throughout, release (the ending, however long) of brakes, governing the transition to maximum lateral cornering, accelerating AGAINST the tractive limit of the driven tires.
I can't overstate how important your final (in bold) sentence is.
The reason why even experienced, "advanced" and instructor level folks think this is a "feet" game is because, at the speeds they're going, it can be and they can get away with it. They think they're ok, so on to the next control input.
It's only when they suddenly, abruptly, bump UP the speed that their glaring error and divarication from the line becomes apparent. Then, most compound their error in trajectory by adding power... "Thunk" turns into "BANG." Sometimes, "BANG...Bang..."
It's not a question of tenths, as Manifold points out, because the most competent drivers, both am and pro following an "inches" game, are consistently driving harder, quicker, but far more accurately AND CONSISTENTLY, in car placement.
They actually drive a little too hot into the corner, then "fix it" with micro corrections.
They use this accuracy and consistency as a check system to "fix it" if they go out of the desired trajectory. If it's it's too far out, they bail and then pick it back up right away, once the car is settled down. A passenger, even an experienced one, might not even see it while it's happening.
Some of us are fortunate enough to have worked with both young and older drivers (starting later in life) who have gone on to race IMSA, SRO, the Rolex 24, Sebring 12-Hour and even LeMans.
With the proper commitment, most drivers can become VERY competent in whatever venue they choose, be it track days, club days, DE or wheel to wheel. The processes are the same. The skill execution requirements to excel are the same. The emotional intelligence requirements to think strategically while managing a 3000 lb dance partner are the same.
I love this sport and so do many others. It's frustrating and immensely fulfilling, at the same time. I don't know the answers. The more I do it, the less I'm absolutely sure of anything.
But, there is NO reason why the incident rates should be so high in a non-competitive (or even competitive) venue. I tend to think the folks here on Rennlist are not the folks that need to hear all this...
My entire coaching strategy focuses on deconstructing two main areas of a driver's performance.
It's not my opinion that guides us, it's observed driver/car performance, car placement and driver skill execution.
The first is validation of line (chosen path around the track), use of the full width of the track (or not), consistency of chosen (and unchosen, as speed rises) path, validating the proper car heading EVERY couple feet of forward travel and finally, adaptation to the track's topography (where the track helps or hurts the trajectory of the car).
The second is a validation of the best execution of fundamental skills. Generally, after the line, going on to maximize the fore/aft axis efficiency (brakes/gas).
Best (and proven) use of WOT, quickest transition from WOT to braking (without upsetting the car), high decel rates that are consistent throughout, release (the ending, however long) of brakes, governing the transition to maximum lateral cornering, accelerating AGAINST the tractive limit of the driven tires.
I can't overstate how important your final (in bold) sentence is.
The reason why even experienced, "advanced" and instructor level folks think this is a "feet" game is because, at the speeds they're going, it can be and they can get away with it. They think they're ok, so on to the next control input.
It's only when they suddenly, abruptly, bump UP the speed that their glaring error and divarication from the line becomes apparent. Then, most compound their error in trajectory by adding power... "Thunk" turns into "BANG." Sometimes, "BANG...Bang..."
It's not a question of tenths, as Manifold points out, because the most competent drivers, both am and pro following an "inches" game, are consistently driving harder, quicker, but far more accurately AND CONSISTENTLY, in car placement.
They actually drive a little too hot into the corner, then "fix it" with micro corrections.
They use this accuracy and consistency as a check system to "fix it" if they go out of the desired trajectory. If it's it's too far out, they bail and then pick it back up right away, once the car is settled down. A passenger, even an experienced one, might not even see it while it's happening.
Some of us are fortunate enough to have worked with both young and older drivers (starting later in life) who have gone on to race IMSA, SRO, the Rolex 24, Sebring 12-Hour and even LeMans.
With the proper commitment, most drivers can become VERY competent in whatever venue they choose, be it track days, club days, DE or wheel to wheel. The processes are the same. The skill execution requirements to excel are the same. The emotional intelligence requirements to think strategically while managing a 3000 lb dance partner are the same.
I love this sport and so do many others. It's frustrating and immensely fulfilling, at the same time. I don't know the answers. The more I do it, the less I'm absolutely sure of anything.
But, there is NO reason why the incident rates should be so high in a non-competitive (or even competitive) venue. I tend to think the folks here on Rennlist are not the folks that need to hear all this...
Well done....