redmonkey928

Before this ends up getting attacked into many different directions - I am curious what the stance or thoughts are on the different generations of the Carrera Cup race cars (ie. GT3 Cup, Carrera Cup, etc.)? I really find these cars amazing in so many different ways, both from what they are as a collectable items all of the way ranging to how they drive on track. My ignorance really showed through the first time I stepped into a 997.1 GT3 Cup I assumed I knew what I was doing as in my head I "could drive a 997 GT3 fairly good" in my on view (poorly in a broader level, but good in my head...). I was amazed at how much more difficult and yet satisfying the challenge was and have been hooked since. So, back to the original question, what is the expected value vs. usage of the different generation Cup's...

Will it largely be based on quantity of cars made alone?
Which generations are more desirable from the view of drivers? Collectors?
Will these cars not actually gain value and always be perceived as a tool vs. a collectable (ie. driven on track)?

My questions arises from seeing where some of the vintage Carrera Cup cars are being sold at, or prices asked, as compared to the values of some of the 997 generation cars which seem to be a massive value depending on how you look at it. So, I am open to taking some heat on this, but I honestly would not mind hearing others thoughts around this.

tcsracing1

I would think only the Super Cups have some note worthy drivers and history that may be important to some collectors. Carrera Cups can sometimes too have noteworthy drivers but realistically the cars are well used and are valued in regards to hours on drive train etc. Poeple still wanna use them and not park them.
The 996 Cups are the last of the simple to own and drive analog manual cups. So they have good market, especially if they are clean examples or with interesting history.
The 997 era are more expensive to keep going compared to 996, but the tubs are easier to repair compared to the newer 991 generations.
991 Mezgers are straight forward tear downs that should keep them in service for many years to come as long as tub remain intact. 991 DFI cups have longer life between service intervals but at some point i think you chuck the motor wheras you continue to keep on rebuilding the mezgers...

I feel that the air cooled cups have shown good resale value because they are air cooled and manual with limited numbers.
The 996 Cups are first generarion water cooled, but they are somewhat affordable to keep going and use for track days or club/vintage racing. This is helping their resale.
I dont see the 997 Cups being in high demand as the availablilty of parts to keep them competitve combined with the high running costs of a sequential make them somewhat of a car you would only want to buy if cheap enough...i dont see it as a car one would want to park in the garage in hopes it climbs in value. There are better cars out there to spectulate appreciation.
991 Porsches in mezger or DFI have aluminum tubs that are harder to save on high impacts. That combined with high running cost sequential and motor rebuilds make it something that is great to run now at the highest level, but when the new car replaces it and the new car after that, the 991 will have to become cheap enough to find new homes that desire to run them as a hobby or for select club events. Nobody will be fighting over them unless all new cup cars go full electric in the future.

All cups are somewhat low production, but have a purpose. And when that purpose passes so do the cars.
The upper crust versions of the cups are what show collectable resale regardless if parked in a garage or used for "vintage" competition. (996RS, 996RSR, 997R, 997RSR, 991RSR)

d15b7

interesting discussion! one thing the original poster didn't mention was time frame; i'd hazard a guess that if you keep it long enough, and in 'as raced, ready to run' condition (cosmetic blems ok, but mechanically solid, such as they were raced), then any/all of them will appreciate (eventually!). for example, can you think of any factory Porsche racecar that is more than 35-40 yrs old that isn't pricey to buy nowadays?? (RSR, factory 930 racecar, 935 racecar, 904/908/910/917/956 et al). the problem is it sounds like you want to buy it, and RACE it hard now, and also have it appreciate enough to be an investment sort of purchase. I don't think that is likely, considering the maintenance requirements (especially on the newer cars) and also the chance of damage to a very expensive tub.

I personally couldn't afford investing in a Cup car as a 'keep it and see what it does over time and then sell it'; but on a totally different tier of investment, I could KICK myself because about 15 yrs ago I had the opportunity to buy a C4 Corvette Challenge car (one of the factory cars that was campaigned in the late 80s); the car was 'as raced' and had a few small cosmetic blems but was totally ready to race and was unwrecked. at that time it was just a used, obsolete racecar without a series to race in. and in ITE or any of the NASA big bore classes it had no chance against the (then new) many C5 racecars. I could have had the car with extra wheels and all spares for $7500! of course I told the guy that was too much $, and what would I do with it, etc etc and never saw it again. nowadays, a legit C4 Challenge is in the $50k range in that condition, and I'm sure it'll keep going up. plus its eligible for Vintage in most regions (I race my Lotus Super Seven with VRG). it would be fun, and they are almost bullet proof, and as long as I didn't wreck it, it would be a ball. (talk about analog haha).

so ya - the way to buy something like the Cup you are talking about, is to buy them when the timing is just right - when they are obsolete and bottomed out depreciationwise, and then just keep it safe inside and maintained. I'd make a pretty big bet that any of those P Car factory racecars will be desirable in 30 yrs; but can you stand to wait that long (or can you stand to maintain and upkeep and race it without overspending??).

I wish I'd bought the C4 Challenge car!!

38D

I have a couple of factory cars in the stable; I believe all are collectable to some degree. I see 4 primary factors that factor into collectibility

1. Number of examples
2. Significance of racing history + provenance (including things like the waggenpass)
3. Originality/condition
4. Age

And here's a few comments on the various generations and my specific examples

• 964 cup - very collectible. Mine is a 1992 that raced in the Supercup series. It's the Rubstone car on the 1993 Supercup poster. It's being fully restored. 964 cups are collectable as there were on 290 made, fewer that have survived, and fewer that raced in the supercup series. You see these come up in europe in the 300k Euro range, though it's always hard to know what they sell for. But its certainly in the 200-350k USD range, maybe more.
• 993 cup - super collectable. Last the the air-cooled. Very few examples. Wish I owned one! These are 350k+ pretty much all day long...if you can even find one.
• 996 cup - not yet, but will be collectible over the next 5-10 years. This one I own won the 2003 Supercup championship with Frank Stippler. Approx 996 cups 750 made across the years. I have the waggenpass and other docs. If the average 996 cup is around 60k, maybe this one is worth a few bucks more. The current condition is mechanically sound, body is definitely "as raced." The 996s are at the bottom of the depreciation curve IMO. In 10 years, I think it might appreciate back to the 150+ range, but right now it's a 60-70k car.
• 997 cup - hard to say. many more produced than prior generations, and parts becoming an issue. These are in the 70-110k range depending on .1 .2 and condition. It think it will be a while before they are worth anything unless it was a famous driver or won the Supercup championship.
• And I'll throw in one more...the GT4 Clubsport MR Evo - Not yet collectable, but maybe someday. I have a 2016 raced by Allied racing in a few 24h races with pro-and type drivers. Condition is pretty good, though it has a lot of hours on the car. Not sure how many were produced, but the MR Evos are pretty race. These are in the 100-150k range depending on condition. Given how expensive the 718 variants are, these are currently holding value reasonably well, though I would expect them to go down to the 60k range over the next 10 years, and then possibly back up after that.

stownsen914

Another consideration is who will lay down the money to buy them in, say, 20+ years. Collectible car prices went berserk in the 1980s and have continued going up over time. It's all about supply & demand, of course. Limited supply of factory race cars and lots of car nuts wanting to buy them = high prices. I have to wonder though if today's younger generation cares as much about cars as we do. Looking beyond the periodic market dips, in 10 or 20 or more years (as today's car enthusiasts age out), will they fork over big $$ for cars?

T&T Racing

I an old school race mechanic and started racing at the age of 60 in 2000. My mechanic apprenticeship started in 1974 building 495 cu. In Chevy CanAm motors for Warren Agor Racing. The 495 was engine if choice in the 1974 TransAm series. Then I switched to building two Chevy Monza with Warren and crew from 1975-1977. I was the engine builder and crew chief. All the crew had a full-time day job and worked nights and weekends on the race cars. In that era, the cars were hand built with the majority of the parts fabricated in the shop or designed and sent to a local machine shop for fabrication. There was limited Chevy factory support. So privateers like Agor Racing had to do the design and build. The Porsche stable had factory support but all modification were done at the race shop.

This is a long-winded history but important because these Anerica, German, and to a lesser extent Japanese race cars were hand modified in a race shop from the original tub or body. Those are the collectible race cars with premiums paid for driver history, the one of a kind, not 60-80 Porsche GT3's

For example a 1972 Jim Hall built Chapperal Camaro bought by Agor Racing with one TransAm win sold fully restored a few years ago for $325K, a 1975 Jim Trueman Chevy Monza, driven by Trueman and Bobby Rahal sold for $125K a few years ago.

The vintage cars appreciate. The latest and hottest Porsche Cup GT3 depreciated, always to be replaced by another version from the factory. These cars are for those who have MEGA $$$ and want to live the life of fly and drive weekend racers, not knowing much about why the car performs. Those who have the money can enjoy their moment in their own sheltered way.

Matt Lane

This is a big one. It's sometime hard to see the forest for the trees - human nature. Like someone of a certain age looking a the luscious curves of a 50's Chevy Bel Air. No idea what these were worth at the peak, are worth today, but I have a pretty good idea who won't be lining up to pick these up in the next 20 years. Just an opinion, of course.

The next gen will value what mattered to them from age 10 to 30. Probably more video games and drift cars than cup cars, I'm afraid.

Cheers

Matt

analogmike

bargain bin cars compared to any factory P car that raced against them.

T&T Racing

Because the P car had a bigger name associated with it and maybe raced the Daytona 24 HR or Lemans. The appeal of these non-P cars is they were engineered and hand-made by pioneers of the racing world, not a Porsche factory engineered car. What ever turns you on is the end game