Left foot braking
03-10-2004, 10:04 AM
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Left foot braking
I am sure most of us try this but in reality is it worth trying to perfect the technique when neurologists believe that acquiring the sensitivity equal to the right foot is impossible, unless you have been using the left foot for braking since learning to drive. Even at the F-1 level many drivers, who realize the benefit of LFB, don't use it because they lack the precision and feel that they get with their right foot.
03-10-2004, 10:12 AM
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Mitch:
Unless you have a sequential transmission, it isn't a fully usable technique. I only use left foot braking on go karts and for left foot braking on certain turns where you want to lightly brake and slow the car for high speed turn set-up, etc. I agree with the problem of developing sensitivity and do it on my street cars to practice for carting.
Unless you have a sequential transmission, it isn't a fully usable technique. I only use left foot braking on go karts and for left foot braking on certain turns where you want to lightly brake and slow the car for high speed turn set-up, etc. I agree with the problem of developing sensitivity and do it on my street cars to practice for carting.
03-10-2004, 10:16 AM
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Mitch,
I use left foot braking at several turns at many tracks. Any turn you do not have to shift you can left foot brake and modulate the throttle. It works great at the carousel at Sebring. It is also very good in autocrossing of which I am not very good..but the experts tend to left foot brake. It gives you the ability to "rocket" out of the turn for you are always on the throttle. I practice left foot braking in my tow vehicle. In fact I solely left foot brake any vehicle that has an automatic transmission..It is faster than right foot braking and provides practice for the track. It no longer feels awkward to left foot brake any auto now..Just a thought.
Pete
I use left foot braking at several turns at many tracks. Any turn you do not have to shift you can left foot brake and modulate the throttle. It works great at the carousel at Sebring. It is also very good in autocrossing of which I am not very good..but the experts tend to left foot brake. It gives you the ability to "rocket" out of the turn for you are always on the throttle. I practice left foot braking in my tow vehicle. In fact I solely left foot brake any vehicle that has an automatic transmission..It is faster than right foot braking and provides practice for the track. It no longer feels awkward to left foot brake any auto now..Just a thought.
Pete
03-10-2004, 10:34 AM
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Agreed, plenty of time to practice on the street - even in a manual! - will, over time, lead to plenty enough sensitivity to drive it on track. Think back to how long it took you to get enough sensitivity to use the clutch smoothly! This is just an extension of that skill set.
Just don't get distracted when you're switching from left-foot braking to upshifting - it can result in a very sudden and harsh disturbance to your acceleration as you spank the clutch pedal for a speed shift... only to realize as you bounce off the harness that your foot's still above the brake pedal! LOL! I think I seem to do that once every year, first weekend out...
Just don't get distracted when you're switching from left-foot braking to upshifting - it can result in a very sudden and harsh disturbance to your acceleration as you spank the clutch pedal for a speed shift... only to realize as you bounce off the harness that your foot's still above the brake pedal! LOL! I think I seem to do that once every year, first weekend out...
03-10-2004, 02:06 PM
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ColorChange Wrote;
Dude... you gotta watch those sweeping statements. I haven't read it, but that's probably "what got you in trouble" in that thread on the TT board. There's a solution to this problem for those skilled at overstating the case - always remember to type "IMHO" at the end of your generalizations!!!! 
As you can see by the data offered after your post, you are either wrong, or you just didn't state your opinion effectively. I would wager that the more experienced the driver, the more likely he/she is to utilize LFB in at least some circumstances. If you autocross and don't do it, you are SERIOUSLY missing the boat.
I'm not sure who this DerSix guy thinks he is... like he's got a lot of track experience or something?! Like he thinks he's the Chairman of the PCA National DE committee or something?! But he's right on the money!
I use LFB EXTENSIVELY. As Pete suggests, every corner where a shift is not necessary, you can utilize it to be on the gas smoother and quicker than trying to smoothly transition in a split second from brake to gas.
In fact, telemetry would show that there is segment of virtually ever corner where I am on the brake and gas at the same time. This would show itself as a very advantageous zero-spike in the transition from brake to throttle. LFB tends to completely erase any anomalies in chassis balance in the transitional moments between deceleration and acceleration when you are initiating your turn in and the car has the most chance of getting away from you.
If you are not on the Friction Circle, as many drivers are NOT, then you can be choppy with your transition and get away with it. If you routinely corner on or very near the FC, then this massaging of the transitional inputs can be VERY effective.
In fact, I use it on EVERY corner. Even in corners that require 1 or 2 downshifts, I will brake as normal with my right foot, pull my H&T shift(s), and then since my right foot is only on the right side of the brake pedal, when done with clutch duties I transition my left foot over to the left side of the brake pedal and seamlessly switch from right to left foot braking to finish out the corner entry. As soon as heavy braking is complete, my right foot has been at the ready with throttle for some time. SEAMLESS!
LFB is also very helpful if the car jumps out on you. Again, if you are on or near the FC, correcting the tail coming around with a counter steer or a front push with a lift is a sure way to head yourself into the weeds in some instances where the track is narrow or you are near the track out. If you are ready to LFB, you can often times add just a little brake - sometimes without even modulating the gas - and keep yourself on the pavement with little loss of speed and no loss of control. It is a VERY effective Prevent Defense!
I have ALWAYS been a 2-foot driver. My long legs are usually splayed out and it is difficult and slow to pick my right leg up to brake. I disagree that you can't develope the touch necessary. If that were the case, amputees could never write, type, or paint with their feet or mouth.
Try this at home kids! Don't try it at the track for a while, eh?
Unless you have a sequential transmission, it isn't a fully usable technique.
As you can see by the data offered after your post, you are either wrong, or you just didn't state your opinion effectively. I would wager that the more experienced the driver, the more likely he/she is to utilize LFB in at least some circumstances. If you autocross and don't do it, you are SERIOUSLY missing the boat.
I'm not sure who this DerSix guy thinks he is... like he's got a lot of track experience or something?! Like he thinks he's the Chairman of the PCA National DE committee or something?!
But he's right on the money!I use LFB EXTENSIVELY. As Pete suggests, every corner where a shift is not necessary, you can utilize it to be on the gas smoother and quicker than trying to smoothly transition in a split second from brake to gas.
In fact, telemetry would show that there is segment of virtually ever corner where I am on the brake and gas at the same time. This would show itself as a very advantageous zero-spike in the transition from brake to throttle. LFB tends to completely erase any anomalies in chassis balance in the transitional moments between deceleration and acceleration when you are initiating your turn in and the car has the most chance of getting away from you.
If you are not on the Friction Circle, as many drivers are NOT, then you can be choppy with your transition and get away with it. If you routinely corner on or very near the FC, then this massaging of the transitional inputs can be VERY effective.
In fact, I use it on EVERY corner. Even in corners that require 1 or 2 downshifts, I will brake as normal with my right foot, pull my H&T shift(s), and then since my right foot is only on the right side of the brake pedal, when done with clutch duties I transition my left foot over to the left side of the brake pedal and seamlessly switch from right to left foot braking to finish out the corner entry. As soon as heavy braking is complete, my right foot has been at the ready with throttle for some time. SEAMLESS!
LFB is also very helpful if the car jumps out on you. Again, if you are on or near the FC, correcting the tail coming around with a counter steer or a front push with a lift is a sure way to head yourself into the weeds in some instances where the track is narrow or you are near the track out. If you are ready to LFB, you can often times add just a little brake - sometimes without even modulating the gas - and keep yourself on the pavement with little loss of speed and no loss of control. It is a VERY effective Prevent Defense!
I have ALWAYS been a 2-foot driver. My long legs are usually splayed out and it is difficult and slow to pick my right leg up to brake. I disagree that you can't develope the touch necessary. If that were the case, amputees could never write, type, or paint with their feet or mouth.
Try this at home kids! Don't try it at the track for a while, eh?
03-10-2004, 02:16 PM
#6
Hard act to follow - Pete and JH have said it all. So, here is a perspective from a guy who does not have decades of experience, and learnt the LFB thing recently.
- LFB makes it possible to set the front end solid as a rock, and effectively removes any transition effects from braking to on the gas - you are on the gas, and modulating the gas and brake together.
- LFB ranks up there with unnatural acts, and takes a while to become automatic. Its really a bummer when the pedal goes to the floor and the car hurtles forward because you have left foot clutched when you meant to left foot brake. Don't ask how I know. In fact, I needed a quick glance down to be SURE I hit the brake pedal for the first few events.
That said, LFB is golden for any situation where you need to set the front for turn in and/or kill some speed for a turn without a downshif. LFB helps make the mental transition from braking [killing speed] to setting the front for turn in.
It really works, although its best to get some muscle memory on your side. I can't imagine driving without using LFB now. Too valuable!
- LFB makes it possible to set the front end solid as a rock, and effectively removes any transition effects from braking to on the gas - you are on the gas, and modulating the gas and brake together.
- LFB ranks up there with unnatural acts, and takes a while to become automatic. Its really a bummer when the pedal goes to the floor and the car hurtles forward because you have left foot clutched when you meant to left foot brake. Don't ask how I know. In fact, I needed a quick glance down to be SURE I hit the brake pedal for the first few events.
That said, LFB is golden for any situation where you need to set the front for turn in and/or kill some speed for a turn without a downshif. LFB helps make the mental transition from braking [killing speed] to setting the front for turn in.
It really works, although its best to get some muscle memory on your side. I can't imagine driving without using LFB now. Too valuable!
03-10-2004, 03:16 PM
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Let me echo the previous, well-written echoes of Pete. I bought my first automatic transmission vehicle last December and have been LFBing with it, and my 993, ever since. I occasionally did it in my manual tranny cars, but now I constantly have my left foot hovering right over the brake pedal. I feel that the time required to brake is much less than moving my right foot off of the accelerator and on the binders. And for trailering, it's great for balancing the rig and for slowing down as quickly as possible since your left foot is only a few millimeters away from the brake pedal.
Personally, I didn't find it too difficult to learn how to brake with my left foot, from slight brushes of the pedal to full-on, throw-out-the-anchors speed stops. I felt confident enough to try it at Sebring a few weeks ago and felt that, as John and Tony assert, it was a key aid in balancing the car in all types of turns. It's really amazing how well it works.
I knew that many of the pros and amateur hot shoes were doing it, but a conversation with Steve Weiner many, many months ago sealed it for me when he said, "At some point, you'll have to learn to left foot brake since it's crucial for fast lap times." Although it took me 17 track days to lose my trepidation of the technique and actually try it out, I'm happy to have learned a new driving skill.
Give it a shot, Mitch; it really works as John and Tony elegantly explained.
Personally, I didn't find it too difficult to learn how to brake with my left foot, from slight brushes of the pedal to full-on, throw-out-the-anchors speed stops. I felt confident enough to try it at Sebring a few weeks ago and felt that, as John and Tony assert, it was a key aid in balancing the car in all types of turns. It's really amazing how well it works.
I knew that many of the pros and amateur hot shoes were doing it, but a conversation with Steve Weiner many, many months ago sealed it for me when he said, "At some point, you'll have to learn to left foot brake since it's crucial for fast lap times." Although it took me 17 track days to lose my trepidation of the technique and actually try it out, I'm happy to have learned a new driving skill.
Give it a shot, Mitch; it really works as John and Tony elegantly explained.
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03-10-2004, 03:20 PM
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Thanks guys. I am practicing on the street now but doubt that I will ever develop the feel that keeps me at threshold and feathers my trail brake. I will try it though.
Pete, will you be at Sebring April 4th? I'm one of the guys that got promoted to instructor under your new national program.
Pete, will you be at Sebring April 4th? I'm one of the guys that got promoted to instructor under your new national program.
03-10-2004, 03:26 PM
#9
In fact, I use it on EVERY corner. Even in corners that require 1 or 2 downshifts, I will brake as normal with my right foot, pull my H&T shift(s), and then since my right foot is only on the right side of the brake pedal, when done with clutch duties I transition my left foot over to the left side of the brake pedal and seamlessly switch from right to left foot braking to finish out the corner entry. As soon as heavy braking is complete, my right foot has been at the ready with throttle for some time. SEAMLESS!
03-10-2004, 03:47 PM
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Redlineman:
NO sweat … I can take it. Now, before you presume what I might have done wrong on the other thread, how about either reading the thread or not commenting, OK? Personally, I'd prefer that you read the thread because you sound smart and experienced, but I know it's long and acrimonious so it’s up to you. I only go ballistic when someone gets personal and you didn’t, in my book.
OK, I agree that I over generalized and/or under explained. I don’t autocross so I can’t comment but what everyone says sounds right to me. I didn’t think I made a definitive statement that you shouldn’t LFB. I said it’s not as usable as a sequential (where you should use it all the time if you can). Now, please understand, many of the best drivers in the world can’t (Rubens Barrichello for one does not do it consistently – he’s experimenting with it). I’m still learning the technique, way early on the learning curve.
I use LFB EXTENSIVELY. As Pete suggests, every corner where a shift is not necessary, you can utilize it to be on the gas smoother and quicker than trying to smoothly transition in a split second from brake to gas.
In fact, telemetry would show that there is segment of virtually ever corner where I am on the brake and gas at the same time. This would show itself as a very advantageous zero-spike in the transition from brake to throttle. LFB tends to completely erase any anomalies in chassis balance in the transitional moments between deceleration and acceleration when you are initiating your turn in and the car has the most chance of getting away from you.
I’m not sure I agree. For most normal cars in normal turns, you trail brake heavily in the initial phase (including a double clutch downshift), hit a neutral phase where you are only on the throttle to hold the car at the proper speed (max lateral g’s), and then accel in the final phase through track out. Now, if you restrict the discussion to no downshift “normal” turns, the turning process would be the same, so in the neutral phase of the turn, the trail braking gently dropped as the car approached max lateral g’s where you gently squeezed on some throttle to maintain speed. I don’t see a clear benefit here using LFB, unless the neutral phase is very short, then LFB would probably be better as you can control faster.
If you are not on the Friction Circle, as many drivers are NOT, then you can be choppy with your transition and get away with it. If you routinely corner on or very near the FC, then this massaging of the transitional inputs can be VERY effective.
Agreed. But, you can still be smooth without LFB, and most drivers (even world class ones) are smoother with RFB.
In fact, I use it on EVERY corner. Even in corners that require 1 or 2 downshifts, I will brake as normal with my right foot, pull my H&T shift(s), and then since my right foot is only on the right side of the brake pedal, when done with clutch duties I transition my left foot over to the left side of the brake pedal and seamlessly switch from right to left foot braking to finish out the corner entry. As soon as heavy braking is complete, my right foot has been at the ready with throttle for some time. SEAMLESS!
I caught you in a mistake. You should never do two downshifts unless you are avoiding brake problems (overheating, thin pads, …). You should threshold brake until you reach the speed that will allow you to catch your exit gear and than grab it. Use the brakes for braking, not the engine. You have much finer control.
Now, I would love to see your technique on a DAS. I see that it could make sense but if you can do it at the limit, and reliably, your one damn good driver. Do you have data and inside video? Not challenging, I’m seriously interested. I have never heard of anyone recommending LFB where a downshift is required and I would like to see it done.
LFB is also very helpful if the car jumps out on you. Again, if you are on or near the FC, correcting the tail coming around with a counter steer or a front push with a lift is a sure way to head yourself into the weeds in some instances where the track is narrow or you are near the track out. If you are ready to LFB, you can often times add just a little brake - sometimes without even modulating the gas - and keep yourself on the pavement with little loss of speed and no loss of control. It is a VERY effective Prevent Defense!
I agree here also, good points.
I have ALWAYS been a 2-foot driver. My long legs are usually splayed out and it is difficult and slow to pick my right leg up to brake. I disagree that you can't develope the touch necessary. If that were the case, amputees could never write, type, or paint with their feet or mouth.
Didn’t say couldn’t, just that it is harder than you think it should be. Like I said, I am still learning it.
APKhaos and Mark: I agree.
NO sweat … I can take it. Now, before you presume what I might have done wrong on the other thread, how about either reading the thread or not commenting, OK? Personally, I'd prefer that you read the thread because you sound smart and experienced, but I know it's long and acrimonious so it’s up to you. I only go ballistic when someone gets personal and you didn’t, in my book.
OK, I agree that I over generalized and/or under explained. I don’t autocross so I can’t comment but what everyone says sounds right to me. I didn’t think I made a definitive statement that you shouldn’t LFB. I said it’s not as usable as a sequential (where you should use it all the time if you can). Now, please understand, many of the best drivers in the world can’t (Rubens Barrichello for one does not do it consistently – he’s experimenting with it). I’m still learning the technique, way early on the learning curve.
I use LFB EXTENSIVELY. As Pete suggests, every corner where a shift is not necessary, you can utilize it to be on the gas smoother and quicker than trying to smoothly transition in a split second from brake to gas.
In fact, telemetry would show that there is segment of virtually ever corner where I am on the brake and gas at the same time. This would show itself as a very advantageous zero-spike in the transition from brake to throttle. LFB tends to completely erase any anomalies in chassis balance in the transitional moments between deceleration and acceleration when you are initiating your turn in and the car has the most chance of getting away from you.
I’m not sure I agree. For most normal cars in normal turns, you trail brake heavily in the initial phase (including a double clutch downshift), hit a neutral phase where you are only on the throttle to hold the car at the proper speed (max lateral g’s), and then accel in the final phase through track out. Now, if you restrict the discussion to no downshift “normal” turns, the turning process would be the same, so in the neutral phase of the turn, the trail braking gently dropped as the car approached max lateral g’s where you gently squeezed on some throttle to maintain speed. I don’t see a clear benefit here using LFB, unless the neutral phase is very short, then LFB would probably be better as you can control faster.
If you are not on the Friction Circle, as many drivers are NOT, then you can be choppy with your transition and get away with it. If you routinely corner on or very near the FC, then this massaging of the transitional inputs can be VERY effective.
Agreed. But, you can still be smooth without LFB, and most drivers (even world class ones) are smoother with RFB.
In fact, I use it on EVERY corner. Even in corners that require 1 or 2 downshifts, I will brake as normal with my right foot, pull my H&T shift(s), and then since my right foot is only on the right side of the brake pedal, when done with clutch duties I transition my left foot over to the left side of the brake pedal and seamlessly switch from right to left foot braking to finish out the corner entry. As soon as heavy braking is complete, my right foot has been at the ready with throttle for some time. SEAMLESS!
I caught you in a mistake. You should never do two downshifts unless you are avoiding brake problems (overheating, thin pads, …). You should threshold brake until you reach the speed that will allow you to catch your exit gear and than grab it. Use the brakes for braking, not the engine. You have much finer control.
Now, I would love to see your technique on a DAS. I see that it could make sense but if you can do it at the limit, and reliably, your one damn good driver. Do you have data and inside video? Not challenging, I’m seriously interested. I have never heard of anyone recommending LFB where a downshift is required and I would like to see it done.
LFB is also very helpful if the car jumps out on you. Again, if you are on or near the FC, correcting the tail coming around with a counter steer or a front push with a lift is a sure way to head yourself into the weeds in some instances where the track is narrow or you are near the track out. If you are ready to LFB, you can often times add just a little brake - sometimes without even modulating the gas - and keep yourself on the pavement with little loss of speed and no loss of control. It is a VERY effective Prevent Defense!
I agree here also, good points.
I have ALWAYS been a 2-foot driver. My long legs are usually splayed out and it is difficult and slow to pick my right leg up to brake. I disagree that you can't develope the touch necessary. If that were the case, amputees could never write, type, or paint with their feet or mouth.
Didn’t say couldn’t, just that it is harder than you think it should be. Like I said, I am still learning it.
APKhaos and Mark: I agree.
03-10-2004, 05:01 PM
#11
Originally posted by ColorChange
I have never heard of anyone recommending LFB where a downshift is required and I would like to see it done.
I have never heard of anyone recommending LFB where a downshift is required and I would like to see it done.
03-10-2004, 09:05 PM
#12
I am practicing on the street now but doubt that I will ever develop the feel that keeps me at threshold and feathers my trail brake.
The two-footed H&T transition to LFB balletic exercise might be something else. I don't even want to think about it too much in case I'm tempted to try it this weekend. Scary!
03-11-2004, 09:26 AM
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Hey Color;
Naw... I was just razzin ya a little. I only flame *********. You're just "opinionated."
Well, what you say makes sense for that style driving, except that I do not use your 3 phases of cornering (heavy brake, neutral throttle, heavy throttle). I have TWO. I am on the gas 60-100% AT THE TURN-IN POINT. Usually closer to 100!!
When you drive a low HP car, you learn this if you want to be quick. That's why low HP cars train the best drivers!!
There you go... SWEEPING again!! Yes, you can be smooth either way. I think you can be smoother, FASTER, with LFB. The last part of this statement is only true if they can't do it right.
Well... no you didn't. I didn't say that I do two seperate downshifts, merely that I might need to go down two gears. But, there are indeed certain circumstances where being in a gear that would allow effective acceleration - should you care/need to use it - can be advantageous. Also, as an example, come to Lime Rock sometime and do Big Bend!
... And I'd love to have video for you. I am trying to afford a camera this year, and I'd REALLY love to get a lipstick for doing the "FootCam!" Please note that I transition to LFB AFTER my downshifts.
Naw... I was just razzin ya a little. I only flame *********. You're just "opinionated."
I’m not sure I agree. For most normal cars in normal turns, you trail brake heavily in the initial phase (including a double clutch downshift), hit a neutral phase where you are only on the throttle to hold the car at the proper speed (max lateral g’s), and then accel in the final phase through track out. Now, if you restrict the discussion to no downshift “normal” turns, the turning process would be the same, so in the neutral phase of the turn, the trail braking gently dropped as the car approached max lateral g’s where you gently squeezed on some throttle to maintain speed. I don’t see a clear benefit here using LFB, unless the neutral phase is very short, then LFB would probably be better as you can control faster.
When you drive a low HP car, you learn this if you want to be quick. That's why low HP cars train the best drivers!!
Agreed. But, you can still be smooth without LFB, and most drivers (even world class ones) are smoother with RFB.
Yes, you can be smooth either way. I think you can be smoother, FASTER, with LFB. The last part of this statement is only true if they can't do it right.
I caught you in a mistake. You should never do two downshifts unless you are avoiding brake problems (overheating, thin pads, …). You should threshold brake until you reach the speed that will allow you to catch your exit gear and than grab it. Use the brakes for braking, not the engine. You have much finer control.
Now, I would love to see your technique on a DAS. I see that it could make sense but if you can do it at the limit, and reliably, your one damn good driver. Do you have data and inside video? Not challenging, I’m seriously interested. I have never heard of anyone recommending LFB where a downshift is required and I would like to see it done.
03-11-2004, 11:04 AM
#14
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An "accessory" comment on this thread: One of the F1 Magazines had a great article late last year where they published some cockpit telemetry from the Ferrari team. They showed the pedal position charts alongside track maps showing entry and exit speeds. Schumacher was faster on the track than Barichello at points which correlated exactly to his overlap of throttle and braking. In essence, the time it took Barichello to move his foot from throttle to brake and back cost him a difference measurable in car lengths by the end of a lap.
Now, to ColorChange's point, I see Sam Posey in the current R&T ranks Barichello as the best qualifier on the F1 grid, so obviously the old guard isn't completely irrelevant yet.
I also lfb every automatic I drive, trying to train my foot. It is very useful when piloting a Hertz rental car around the track during a DE. They always want to upshift at exactly the wrong place, so keeping some throttle while regulating speed with the brake keeps it in the lower gear! However after a couple of years practice I don't trust it enough in a 10/10s race situation.
B
Now, to ColorChange's point, I see Sam Posey in the current R&T ranks Barichello as the best qualifier on the F1 grid, so obviously the old guard isn't completely irrelevant yet.
I also lfb every automatic I drive, trying to train my foot. It is very useful when piloting a Hertz rental car around the track during a DE. They always want to upshift at exactly the wrong place, so keeping some throttle while regulating speed with the brake keeps it in the lower gear! However after a couple of years practice I don't trust it enough in a 10/10s race situation.
B
03-11-2004, 11:17 AM
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I also lfb every automatic I drive, trying to train my foot. It is very useful when piloting a Hertz rental car around the track during a DE. They always want to upshift at exactly the wrong place, so keeping some throttle while regulating speed with the brake keeps it in the lower gear! However after a couple of years practice I don't trust it enough in a 10/10s race situation.