Dirt Track Racer

Hey Fork, with a little practice, its not too hard to filter your reading and studying here based on who is making the post. And don't let sheer number of posts be the guiding light either. If we all did that, JimBob and watt would be the greatest drivers in the history of the world. Oh wait, I forgot, watt already is.

Anyway, there is a ton of good information to be learned here, and there are still a few knowledgable people here to offer help and advice - at least all the smart ones haven't been run out yet. So ask your questions and consider the source of the replies.

And FWIW - no way should anyone without considerable experience be trying LFB, trail braking, and H&T at the track. There are many other skills which need to be mastered before even thinking about those. There was actually one time when I had to ask to get out of a students car. It was his second DE and he had been practicing H&T on the street for a few weeks. Said he liked the race car sound it made. Well I was 100% sure we were going to crash, so I got out after he wouldn't listen to me and stop trying. I heard from the replacement instructor that he kept trying all weekend. I could tell when I was on the track with him as he missed every brake and corner point.

Best of luck.

forklift

Hi Mark,

Yes, I will definitely keep an eye out for you. I am getting off to a good start this year. I have FATT this Friday, Mazda Club VIR north course, the following weekend, and Zone 2 VIR the weekend after that. I may even go to the Shatembaum (sp.) Summit DE the weekend after that......lots of tires this year.

I have never been to VIR before (Summit only), and am really looking forward to it.....and meeting some Rennlisters to boot!

Jim

forklift

Thanks Dirt.

Dirt Track Racer

Hey Fork, VIR kicks some serious butt. Be ready for an incredible experience compared to SP. Be careful not to lift to hard up the esses or especially at South Bend - the left hander at the top of the esses. Also, in South Bend, if you are going to put two wheels off on the outside, let them go. Any fighting the wheel there and you will hook it across the track into the tires. I have seen at least 10 cars in the tires there. Personally, I have had my 993 so far in the grass on the right there they could have paid me as a lawn mower. No way I was going to fight the wheel to stay on the track in that seriously pucker factor turn.

Have a blast.

Mark in Baltimore

Forklift,

Cool. I'll see you then. What color is your car?

forklift

DTR- Ok, I have been reading hot laps for VIR, just for visuals, not sure if that will help. Hopefully I won't have to re-name my car John Deer.

Mark, my car is black and looks stock, I signed up for #242 before I knew numbers related to run groups. I think they are going to let me go w/ that number though...not that it really makes a difference to me.

Really looking forward to it......

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Hey Jim, I have lots of time at VIR in both race cars and 993s. I have a video of my 993 if that will help that I could probably send you. Its big though and I have no place to host it on the net anymore. If your email isn't restricted for file size, I can send it.

BTW - I used to live in Clifton in LRR. You must be close to there?

E. J.

forklift

Awsome! Please email to jevans@calvertmortgage.com I had found a video of a motorcycle doing the North Course, which is ok, but when I compare that to the Hot Lap notes, they are way off line (for a car). I would be great to see the track from a 911 point of view.

LRR is only 10 mins. away, I was going to say something about the skyrocketing values in Clifton, but if you are in Alexandria, you already know that!

Thanks!

Manny Alban

I think I have to hand in my instructors card, I must confess that I don't know how to LFB. Do they sell one of those pedals that people use to cheat H&T for LFB (or is it just a bigger brake pedal...nah, that'll just encourage me to overbrake more than I do now).

Well, at least I'm pretty good at heel and toe

ColorChange

Mark: Thanks for the post and avoiding personal attacks as many others cannot. If you take a look at the 90 degree turn you mentioned, I am talking about maximizing g sum = sqr[(lat g)^2+(lon g)^2]. If you only look at lat g’s, your analysis would be correct. If you look at long g’s as well, you are not. In your first example, let’s say both cars enter the turn at exactly the same speed. While the driver who drove the geometric line might have had slightly more g sum through that turn, he will now have significantly less g-sum in the braking for the next turn because the proper line driver is going faster when he hits the braking zone. The reduction in g-sum in the first turn is perfectly re-captured (and then some) in the second turn. Agree? I ma not saying to optimize g-sum at all times, I am saying optimize g-sum over the course of a lap. If you do this, you are the fastest, period.


Dirt Track Racer

Uh … what?

Sure, in sequential gearboxes, or real racing boxes, its fine to skip gears. You obvously don't skip gears in a sequential box, but you can usually bang through them much faster than a regular gearbox.

In sequential gearboxes it’s impossible to skip a downshift, thus the word sequential.

Maybe it is a matter of personal preference, but I find it much easier to concentrate on just performing one H/T double clutch downshift perfectly rather than two or more.

Rather you are telling your online friends you are - hoping they will think you are the man.

I don’t know the purpose of that comment or who it is intended for so I will not reply.


DJ
That's the problem. You have all these nice theories, but you don't have the practical experience to speak with any real authority. There are some things I know, and some things I think, and I try my best not to confuse the two. You seem to "think" a lot of things that you "know" nothing about (in the practical sense), but you pretend like you "know". Theories are great, but don't always work out the way you think they will when you attempt to prove them emperically.

DJ, That’s a nice unfounded personal attack. Now, if you would care to tell me what facts I have confused? If you do I will be glad to reply or correct myself. How about you stop saying I’m, wrong and say specifically what I said that was wrong, ok? Also, I agree with you, I have little practical experience, luckily for me, experience does not change physics.

With a close-ratio gearbox, there's very little difference between one gear and the next. When I'm downshifting, I'm consistently letting clutch out within 100 rpms of redline. I'm not cruising around, trying to make it easy on myself, I'm trying to get every last thousandth of a second out of the car. Do that, and become proficient at it, then come back and tell me you know what you're talking about.

Why are you needlessly beating on your engine and drive train by downshifting to within 100 rpm of redline? I don’t understand the benefit of this.


JPM
I agree, I see no need not to skip gears as the risk of over revving the engine is low for me in DE events. In racing, I don’t know but certainly not for me in DE’s.


Tim:

I largely agree with you. I do recognize the inherent benefits in LFB. This is undisputable in a sequential box, and still relevant in standard trannys. I also agree that you could be right about wanting to be in gear for emergencies on the race track. I do not race so I yield to your experience and it sound logical. Would you agree in a DE situation that it is beneficial to skip downshifts when possible?

Thanks for the ideas on LFB practice. They sound good. I would love to hear your LFB threshold braking comments.


Mark
Yes, I have had only three DE’s. Low character people like forklift who resort to personal attacks believe that experience affects the truth. I don’t, the truth is the truth regardless of how much experience you have.

Sun Ra

Well EJ you finally slipped up and revealed you're the monster behind dirt track racer. that's really too bad. why dont you retire that negative persona, now you're outted?

I am a mediocre driver as have always said so, but for a human, of your advertised stature, to demean others as you do while hiding behind a fake name is rather small.

Enjoy your self setting new records up in hershey, your fren

Bob Rouleau

Who said these forums were starting to look like Jerry Springer? Where is Big Steve when we need him?

DTR - tried to respond to your PM but you appear not to be accepting messages.

Manny - Don't buy a pedal thingie, buy a challenge car with the F1 gearbox. Then you can dance on two pedals like Schumi.

There are a couple of turns where my GT2 falls off boost if I am following a slower car. Over on the PSM thread I learned that the reason my LFB works is that I am on the brakes first then on the throttle which prevents my e-gas from shutting the engine down. I get on the gas early to build back boost before I release the brakes. It is getting to be academic anyway since with 2000 and later Porsches, egas will assume you have a runaway engine if you apply the brakes while still calling for power. Losing power in a fast corner is a scary thought for a 911 driver.

On downshifts - I always teach (and do it myself) to go down through intermediate gears. If a turn requires a 5th to 3rd progression, I go through 4rd on the way. I might not always heel and toe into the in-between gear but I will put the lever into the gate. My reason is that I do not want to make a mistake and end up in first! Colorchange, no offense, but people have made that sort of mistake at DE on a number of occasions and if they are lucky only blow the clutch. With no prize and no glory, why take the risk? If you do a search on the "money shift" you'll find plenty of examples. Also, the older gear boxes are a lot less precise than the new ones which increases the risk of getting the wrong gear.

Best,

Adam Richman

Color, I think its fair to say that over time and with experience, there is a reality that this habit/hobby/whatever is really not easily defined by physics and math. Even selecting the right final drive and/or gear set if an option is something better derived by experience than math because there are always trade-offs. Braking, where to, when to, how long to, how much to are not, in the end, functions of a mathematical sum but best determined by what is best for the car/driver/situation to get the most out of all componenents. I think you will find as you continue to drive on track that what makes the most sense doesn't always fit into a logical compartment. If it did, car setup would be determined solely by the car and that is seldom the case.

Peace and remember this is supposed to be fun

Greg Fishman

Color,
I am not saying this to attack or insult you but you really need to lay off a bit. Your technical experience and knowledge are great tools but it would help your arguments tremendously if you had some real world experience or at least gave credit to those who do. Your statements are kind of like me reading about doing surgery extensively and knowing all the facts, then arguing with a real surgeon about technique. I know that getting around a track for a fast lap takes more than book knowledge and I also know that some "book" knowledge can make a difference to someone with good natural instincts. You seem to be weighted too heavily on one side of the equation.

Anyway, maybe you can go to the Gingerman PCA race in July (not sure if they have a DE as well) and we can get a chance to ride in each other's cars and compare notes and suggestions.

RedlineMan

Hey Guys;

I knew it had to happen.

Color... you earned it, man. I stayed away, but I knew it was coming. No hard feelings either way I sincerely hope, but you're full of scheissen! You just gotta see or believe in the Gray of Real Life instead of cramming everything into your CNC-Machined Black & White World View. You must be an engineer!

Tim Comeau - You freaked me out, dude! Your name is not unknown to me either, bro. I think we are from the same zygote or something. You were writing what my mind was thinking as I read it!!! Thanks, while I blush. Naw... not really! I know I'm a legend in my own mind.

I was bombing into the "90" at the Glen one time (hard right), trailing closely behind 3 other cars (944T in front of me, one Carerra, can't remember the other). I'd been trying to keep up with them for 3-4 laps. They'd pull me on the straights (of course), I'd catch them in the braking zones. I maybe could have passed them all, but it was a DE after all.

Well, it starts to occur to me to drop to 4th, and then to 3rd later on for setup. I usually just wait and drop from 5th to 3rd, but something in the back of my mind says "be in a gear." Sure enough, the guy in front of me blows his shift and locks his rears. His car slews tail to the right (away from the turn). In that split second, I made my bold move cause I was too close to do anything else. I knew he was only in the Wig portion of his Tank Slapper, and that when he Wagged he'd shoot across the track to the right.

Since my gut was right and I was already in gear, I simply jerked the wheel right and floored it! This was about the 100 foot mark! I went shooting by him as he started to transition from Wig to Wag and saw him cross behind me in my mirrors. Somehow, I got whoa'ed down enough not to take out the two guys that had been in front of him, and he apparently gathered it up before hitting the pit wall.

That was one of the "flyers" I talked about earlier. Good thing I was in a gear, eh Color? More Gray there than you can probably stand!!!!