Left foot braking
03-18-2004, 01:30 PM
#121
Lifetime Rennlist Member
CC,
I think there are actually few turns that reward anything more than light trail braking. Now I have only drive Gingerman once so I don't have much experience there or that much recollection of the track - But, I don't recall much trail braking there.
Now I have never seen you drive, so this is speculation - but it is based on a lot of experience with newer drivers and trying to fill in based on some of what you have said, with some basic driving pointers. Thus, take it or leave it...
One of my best coaches told me that you build speed in three stages. First by correctly driving the line. Second, by adding exit speed and finally by gaining entry speed. If you are anywhere close to the average DE driver, you should be working on line, yet you seem to be focused on stage 3 (entry speed).
I am going to guess that you are making the mistake on line that ~98% of newer drivers make - that is taking an early apex. It is natural, as an early apex opens up the corner entry - feels better, looks better visually and make you think you are going faster. The other thing about an early apex is that is allows you to trail brake heavily. Conversely, in those corners where it makes sense to use heavy trail braking, you must take a somewhat early apex to make that work.
My suspicion is that the combination of being focused on the advanced technique of trail braking, with the normal error of early apexing, has lead you to this point. Maybe someone who knows Gingerman better can speak up, but I think you are forcing the corners to be heavy trail brake corners. By contrast, I would evaluate some of the following tracks this way:
Mid-Ohio 1 Heavy TB corner
Grattan 1
Laguna Seca 2
Buttonwillow 1 (plus 2 decreasing radius CCW)
Willow Springs 0 or perhaps 1 for some cars
IRP 1 (I think as I have only been there once)
I think there are actually few turns that reward anything more than light trail braking. Now I have only drive Gingerman once so I don't have much experience there or that much recollection of the track - But, I don't recall much trail braking there.
Now I have never seen you drive, so this is speculation - but it is based on a lot of experience with newer drivers and trying to fill in based on some of what you have said, with some basic driving pointers. Thus, take it or leave it...
One of my best coaches told me that you build speed in three stages. First by correctly driving the line. Second, by adding exit speed and finally by gaining entry speed. If you are anywhere close to the average DE driver, you should be working on line, yet you seem to be focused on stage 3 (entry speed).
I am going to guess that you are making the mistake on line that ~98% of newer drivers make - that is taking an early apex. It is natural, as an early apex opens up the corner entry - feels better, looks better visually and make you think you are going faster. The other thing about an early apex is that is allows you to trail brake heavily. Conversely, in those corners where it makes sense to use heavy trail braking, you must take a somewhat early apex to make that work.
My suspicion is that the combination of being focused on the advanced technique of trail braking, with the normal error of early apexing, has lead you to this point. Maybe someone who knows Gingerman better can speak up, but I think you are forcing the corners to be heavy trail brake corners. By contrast, I would evaluate some of the following tracks this way:
Mid-Ohio 1 Heavy TB corner
Grattan 1
Laguna Seca 2
Buttonwillow 1 (plus 2 decreasing radius CCW)
Willow Springs 0 or perhaps 1 for some cars
IRP 1 (I think as I have only been there once)
03-18-2004, 02:09 PM
#122
Race Director
To me... I define trail braking as any braking that is NOT done in a straight line.
Standard DE instruction stresses braking in straight line. It is safe and good for beginners.
I have learned that to make my car fast and rotate around corners I tend to apply brakes and have some steerting wheel input. In some corners I remain on the brakes as I turn in. This helps to rotate car and get it pointed where I want. Thus I can get on the power sooner. It also eliminates (or grealty reduces) the neutral thorttle portion of the corner. When I was braking in a straight line I would be neutral or off throttle from the the turn in point to the apex. Now I am still applying some brakes during turn in.
---------- Is this trail braking?
Second case is in decreasing radius corners. If you use a classic school line you are slow because you need to "set up a straight line braking zone". This often pulls you off the ideal line or requries you to brake earlier. It also increases the time neutral throttle time from brakes to gas. If you can brake as you turning you can often hold the braking later this being able to pass the guys infront and if you balance the car go through the corner much faster. Places to do this are Turn 2 and Phoenix International.
Is this trail braking?
Standard DE instruction stresses braking in straight line. It is safe and good for beginners.
I have learned that to make my car fast and rotate around corners I tend to apply brakes and have some steerting wheel input. In some corners I remain on the brakes as I turn in. This helps to rotate car and get it pointed where I want. Thus I can get on the power sooner. It also eliminates (or grealty reduces) the neutral thorttle portion of the corner. When I was braking in a straight line I would be neutral or off throttle from the the turn in point to the apex. Now I am still applying some brakes during turn in.
---------- Is this trail braking?
Second case is in decreasing radius corners. If you use a classic school line you are slow because you need to "set up a straight line braking zone". This often pulls you off the ideal line or requries you to brake earlier. It also increases the time neutral throttle time from brakes to gas. If you can brake as you turning you can often hold the braking later this being able to pass the guys infront and if you balance the car go through the corner much faster. Places to do this are Turn 2 and Phoenix International.
Is this trail braking?
03-18-2004, 02:33 PM
#123
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mike and Mark...
Your killing me, man!
Sunday - I think your last reply has sealed it for me. You ARE the man!
Color - No, no, no... I don't want to drive your TT, I want YOU to drive it you doofus!
I know how I drive... and it wouldn't be fast in someone elses car, that's for sure!
I think you need to embrace what Mark and Sunday have said in their last posts. They have very eloquently and deferentially offered what everyone else is thinking. Your modeling is intriguing, but your insistence is troubling, based on your experience. This would not be a scenario that would cause an instructor to maintain undue confidence that you were going to progress quickly, nor smoothly. It's truly a gray world out there on the track, and DAS cannot create the single most important trait - instinct!
This discussion has caused me to realize that I now want to summarily reject the term Trail Braking because there are more types of braking after turn in than one term can describe. therefore it is a semantical quagmire, as is quite the case here. New terms/definitions list:
- Rotation Braking - Braking done at a higher speed than the corner can generally bear with the intent of shifting weight to the front, lightening the rear, and causing it to yaw so as to rotate the car around the apex. To not do so would result in understeer and/or agricultural driving... or worse.
Here's a good picture to illustrate this!
- Transition Braking - Light braking used after turn-in to smooth transfer of g-load from full front to full side. When done with the left foot, this also facilitates the earlier addition of throttle, and Transition Braking can continue for a short period to facilitate the shift from full side to full rear g-load (acceleration).
Your killing me, man!
Sunday - I think your last reply has sealed it for me. You ARE the man!
Color - No, no, no... I don't want to drive your TT, I want YOU to drive it you doofus!
I know how I drive... and it wouldn't be fast in someone elses car, that's for sure!I think you need to embrace what Mark and Sunday have said in their last posts. They have very eloquently and deferentially offered what everyone else is thinking. Your modeling is intriguing, but your insistence is troubling, based on your experience. This would not be a scenario that would cause an instructor to maintain undue confidence that you were going to progress quickly, nor smoothly. It's truly a gray world out there on the track, and DAS cannot create the single most important trait - instinct!
This discussion has caused me to realize that I now want to summarily reject the term Trail Braking because there are more types of braking after turn in than one term can describe. therefore it is a semantical quagmire, as is quite the case here. New terms/definitions list:
- Rotation Braking - Braking done at a higher speed than the corner can generally bear with the intent of shifting weight to the front, lightening the rear, and causing it to yaw so as to rotate the car around the apex. To not do so would result in understeer and/or agricultural driving... or worse.
Here's a good picture to illustrate this!
- Transition Braking - Light braking used after turn-in to smooth transfer of g-load from full front to full side. When done with the left foot, this also facilitates the earlier addition of throttle, and Transition Braking can continue for a short period to facilitate the shift from full side to full rear g-load (acceleration).
03-18-2004, 02:38 PM
#124
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
John - nice pic. Is that smoke behind your car? Tire smoke? Is that Smoke Braking or is it Trail of Smoke Braking? All these new terms are giving me a headache :-)
03-18-2004, 03:14 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about the "oh **** braking" when you realize your much too fast...
And the "oh well braking" when spinning and you give up and lockem up,
Almost forgot the "what the f---! braking" when you realize you've boiled the fluid
And the "oh well braking" when spinning and you give up and lockem up,
Almost forgot the "what the f---! braking" when you realize you've boiled the fluid
03-18-2004, 03:43 PM
#126
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
MItch, I like your definitions (but I am still waiting for John to explain the Smoke Trail-Braking). Where I live, Oh! Sh*T braking is when Bambi decides to run across the track as you're tracking out of a 115 MPG sweeper! This usually leads to a) dead bambi and (last time at least) $9,000 damage to the front of a 951, or b) Your "oh well" braking.
Best,
Best,
03-18-2004, 04:29 PM
#127
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My 3/2/04 from the RE: Post your favorite turns! Thread in this forum.
“And I have only done reconnaissance laps at RA. Can’t wait to work it up full bore.”
Mike, your 3/2/04 post AFTER mine, same thread
“Colorchange
You mentioned last week that you are going 110 through the carroussel at Road America.
What are you doing through the Kink?”
My following response, same day.
Mike:
I have never run RA flat out yet. I pulled the data from the smartest guys I know in the racing business (Northwestern Ph.D. + experience).
The guys at Precision AutoResearch offer a jam packed technical program called Race Data power. I pulled the following data off of that. With decent track tires, getting 1.25 g's should be easy. As you can see, you can pull 120 at entry on the carousel and 103 on exit. For kink, you are looking at 146. Yow!
My Countach can only pull 1.0 g's on street tires so I should have been able to get 108 at the carousel but I have not worked up to full speeds yet.
Mike, this is the second time you have implied that I lied or purposely misled. Please don’t do it again unless you pull all the facts together OK? My car is due in May and I (and the car) will not be ready for RA. In fact, I plan on brining my E55AMG to Gingerman if the tt isn’t here yet. That should be fun.
Finally, I am not recommending anybody do anything as a general rule. I fully admit that I am not qualified and I want no responsibility. I make these points as an educational discussion, not as preaching as to what people should do. I will rarely make the statement “you should do this”.
Mark in Baltimore, if it will make you feel better, pretend I have 0 experience. Now, do you have any comments about what I have said. I have no problem with credibility and looking at anything I say with a skeptical eye. If I were you I would do it, as a matter of fact, I do that with everything. The only thing I would ask you to do is to think about whether what I have said is right or wrong. Again, NOONE SHOULD TAKE WHAT I SAY AS GOSPEL AND ACT ON IT. This is purely for discussion purposes. Also, I have stated repeatedly and in numerous threads that I have almost no experience. I have never intentionally mislead anyone on that fact.
I find this downplaying of seat time to be disconcerting. So, without seat time, how do you propose to test and refine your theories? Based upon your heavy reliance on your models, I would expect that you would be able to turn some of the fastest laps your track has ever seen. Now, if you can't turn some blazingly fast times, you have to ask yourself, why not? IMHO, the answer is lack of seat time since your theories are not making you faster.
My statement does not downplay seat time! It simply says seat time is not the ONLY way to go fast. That was the error in the post I corrected. I can show you prior posts where I have said seat time is the best and most important thing. Don’t jump to wrong and unsupported conclusions.
Secondly, knowing how to do something says nothing about being able to do something. I have said it before, I am strong (not great) technically on the theory, but I am a pretty poor driver. Yes, the biggest reason why I am not faster is because of a severe lack of seat time. Truthfully, my kids are more important than my racing hobby so I cannot remedy that shortcoming any time soon (as a big time commitment is required and I started tracking way too late). I also think you’re being funny with the Jim Clark comment. Here is what I will say, for someone with fewer than 5 days of track experience, I’m pretty damn good and I have the data to prove it. Compared to many of you and most good drivers, do I suck? Yes. Is that fair?
Wait, I’ll bet I can stir the pot with this comment, I’ll bet I’m better than almost all of you when you had fewer than 5 days experience. Please don’t kill me for that one, couldn’t resist.
Good God have we hijacked this thread now.
Sunday
I disagree with you on light tb versus my description of heavy tb. Gingerman has a 90 fed by a straight and feeding a straight (turn 11). This is a big tb turn, indisputably and again, I have the theory and the actual data (largely) to prove it.
I agree with your gaining speed in stages exactly as you describe. This is what I do. I think I do it fairly quickly. The last time I was at Gingerman, I was working on the line, g sum maximization on that line, and reduction in overall variability. I was not working on double clutch downshifting, rpm maximization, LFBing, and other advanced techniques as I’m not ready yet. I think I do learn very quickly.
While I agree with you assumption of early apexing as a normal newbie mistake. I don’t often early apex though. I will sometime turn in too early, and this pisses me off because I then have to get off the fc to get back on the line. Again, I have data to show it. I disagree about implying that my tb is due to poor line selection, and AGAIN, I have the data to show it! I have also ridden with instructors who have said my line is fine (usually) and they are surprised that I am on the fc so often and early and that is why I have been quickly promoted in run groups and needed minimal checkout time even on my first DE before I was allowed to solo. But, I still suck so don’t think I think I’m good.
The only person I know here who has been on the track with me is FormulaOne10. He may care to comment if he is following this thread.
M758: I agree with your definition of trail braking and why.
John, My technical understand does not require (could be helped by I admit) direct experience. I am so confident because of my understanding, not my ability.
Unless I’m whacked, your picture shows a car at the fc (nice job) on TRACK OUT, not under braking. What you call transition braking is what I am many others, and texts call tb. This may help clear up some of or disagreements.
Mitch236:
I’ve used your Oh **** theory on braking after missing a HT double clutch downshift twice and lightened up on the threshold braking enough while trying to catch the gear (bad synchro, since fixed) that it was time to go lawn mowing … with an instructor next to me no less! (Yes I took it straight off, I might have made the turn and held the tarmac, but then again … I might not have)
“And I have only done reconnaissance laps at RA. Can’t wait to work it up full bore.”
Mike, your 3/2/04 post AFTER mine, same thread
“Colorchange
You mentioned last week that you are going 110 through the carroussel at Road America.
What are you doing through the Kink?”
My following response, same day.
Mike:
I have never run RA flat out yet. I pulled the data from the smartest guys I know in the racing business (Northwestern Ph.D. + experience).
The guys at Precision AutoResearch offer a jam packed technical program called Race Data power. I pulled the following data off of that. With decent track tires, getting 1.25 g's should be easy. As you can see, you can pull 120 at entry on the carousel and 103 on exit. For kink, you are looking at 146. Yow!
My Countach can only pull 1.0 g's on street tires so I should have been able to get 108 at the carousel but I have not worked up to full speeds yet.
Mike, this is the second time you have implied that I lied or purposely misled. Please don’t do it again unless you pull all the facts together OK? My car is due in May and I (and the car) will not be ready for RA. In fact, I plan on brining my E55AMG to Gingerman if the tt isn’t here yet. That should be fun.
Finally, I am not recommending anybody do anything as a general rule. I fully admit that I am not qualified and I want no responsibility. I make these points as an educational discussion, not as preaching as to what people should do. I will rarely make the statement “you should do this”.
Mark in Baltimore, if it will make you feel better, pretend I have 0 experience. Now, do you have any comments about what I have said.
I have no problem with credibility and looking at anything I say with a skeptical eye. If I were you I would do it, as a matter of fact, I do that with everything. The only thing I would ask you to do is to think about whether what I have said is right or wrong. Again, NOONE SHOULD TAKE WHAT I SAY AS GOSPEL AND ACT ON IT. This is purely for discussion purposes. Also, I have stated repeatedly and in numerous threads that I have almost no experience. I have never intentionally mislead anyone on that fact.I find this downplaying of seat time to be disconcerting. So, without seat time, how do you propose to test and refine your theories? Based upon your heavy reliance on your models, I would expect that you would be able to turn some of the fastest laps your track has ever seen. Now, if you can't turn some blazingly fast times, you have to ask yourself, why not? IMHO, the answer is lack of seat time since your theories are not making you faster.
My statement does not downplay seat time! It simply says seat time is not the ONLY way to go fast. That was the error in the post I corrected. I can show you prior posts where I have said seat time is the best and most important thing. Don’t jump to wrong and unsupported conclusions.
Secondly, knowing how to do something says nothing about being able to do something. I have said it before, I am strong (not great) technically on the theory, but I am a pretty poor driver. Yes, the biggest reason why I am not faster is because of a severe lack of seat time. Truthfully, my kids are more important than my racing hobby so I cannot remedy that shortcoming any time soon (as a big time commitment is required and I started tracking way too late). I also think you’re being funny with the Jim Clark comment. Here is what I will say, for someone with fewer than 5 days of track experience, I’m pretty damn good and I have the data to prove it. Compared to many of you and most good drivers, do I suck? Yes. Is that fair?
Wait, I’ll bet I can stir the pot with this comment, I’ll bet I’m better than almost all of you when you had fewer than 5 days experience.
Please don’t kill me for that one, couldn’t resist.Good God have we hijacked this thread now.
Sunday
I disagree with you on light tb versus my description of heavy tb. Gingerman has a 90 fed by a straight and feeding a straight (turn 11). This is a big tb turn, indisputably and again, I have the theory and the actual data (largely) to prove it.
I agree with your gaining speed in stages exactly as you describe. This is what I do. I think I do it fairly quickly. The last time I was at Gingerman, I was working on the line, g sum maximization on that line, and reduction in overall variability. I was not working on double clutch downshifting, rpm maximization, LFBing, and other advanced techniques as I’m not ready yet. I think I do learn very quickly.
While I agree with you assumption of early apexing as a normal newbie mistake. I don’t often early apex though. I will sometime turn in too early, and this pisses me off because I then have to get off the fc to get back on the line. Again, I have data to show it. I disagree about implying that my tb is due to poor line selection, and AGAIN, I have the data to show it! I have also ridden with instructors who have said my line is fine (usually) and they are surprised that I am on the fc so often and early and that is why I have been quickly promoted in run groups and needed minimal checkout time even on my first DE before I was allowed to solo. But, I still suck so don’t think I think I’m good.
The only person I know here who has been on the track with me is FormulaOne10. He may care to comment if he is following this thread.
M758: I agree with your definition of trail braking and why.
John, My technical understand does not require (could be helped by I admit) direct experience. I am so confident because of my understanding, not my ability.
Unless I’m whacked, your picture shows a car at the fc (nice job) on TRACK OUT, not under braking. What you call transition braking is what I am many others, and texts call tb. This may help clear up some of or disagreements.
Mitch236:
I’ve used your Oh **** theory on braking after missing a HT double clutch downshift twice and lightened up on the threshold braking enough while trying to catch the gear (bad synchro, since fixed) that it was time to go lawn mowing … with an instructor next to me no less! (Yes I took it straight off, I might have made the turn and held the tarmac, but then again … I might not have)
03-18-2004, 04:49 PM
#128
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless I’m whacked, your picture shows a car at the fc (nice job) on TRACK OUT, not under braking. What you call transition braking is what I am many others, and texts call tb. This may help clear up some of or disagreements.
03-18-2004, 05:10 PM
#130
for someone with fewer than 5 days of track experience, I’m pretty damn good
I'm sure I'm not the only instructor who has had 0/0 Green students that have shown the talent, the skill, and the ability to learn quickly sufficient to be promoted to Blue [or intermediate, whatever the color used] in less than five track days.
These drivers are generally NOT the hot-shoe ego maniacs convinced that they are the next Shumi. Nor are they the guys that have it 'all figured out' before they ever see the track. They are generally understated, capable, keen to soak up all the knowledge their instructor can give them, and well aware of their lack of experience. They come in male and female models.
So, it seems that someone with five days of track experience who is still in green might be average, or might even be below average. Too soon to tell. What is certain is that this individual is not among the few that progress quickly to the advanced groups.
Disclaimer: I spent 2.5 days in green before being moved to blue in one of the 'faster' PCA regions. I instruct with PCA, and hold a race license. I still ride with an instructor every DE event.
I have not yet developed a theory, or a model, or a manifesto.Too many smart and experienced guys around to learn from!
03-18-2004, 05:28 PM
#132
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Tony,
I've had a few fast learners but not zero to blue in five days. FWIW, I have found that people who ski generally catch on faster - they have a feel for the balance and understand the need to be smooth right off. YMMV of course. Now for the biggie - most of the time, women learn faster than men. Finesse comes naturally to most of them and they actually do what you ask them to do. Nomex on.
I've had a few fast learners but not zero to blue in five days. FWIW, I have found that people who ski generally catch on faster - they have a feel for the balance and understand the need to be smooth right off. YMMV of course. Now for the biggie - most of the time, women learn faster than men. Finesse comes naturally to most of them and they actually do what you ask them to do. Nomex on.
03-18-2004, 05:37 PM
#133
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Bob
I think one thing ski racing teaches you that translates is keeping your eyes up.
What was it "ski one or two turns ahead"?
One advantage of getting older is it gets easier to get NASTAR Gold. So as not to imply anything, I usually get Silver.
I think one thing ski racing teaches you that translates is keeping your eyes up.
What was it "ski one or two turns ahead"?
One advantage of getting older is it gets easier to get NASTAR Gold. So as not to imply anything, I usually get Silver.
03-18-2004, 05:38 PM
#134
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bob: for what it's worth, I am an excellent skier, former ski jumper (x-country and combined), and have a fair amount of ski racing experience. I am sure the comfort with speed and carving experience has helped me dramatically.
Mike, while I won't challenge you on the track, I certainly will on the slopes! And I’ll buy the beer.
Mike, while I won't challenge you on the track, I certainly will on the slopes! And I’ll buy the beer.
03-18-2004, 05:43 PM
#135
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At one time, one of the "Crazy Canucks", the Canadian downhill skiers who were cleaning up in downhill World Cup skiing in the 1980's, came to a UCR DE and moved from green to red on one weekend.