forklift

I have been tempted to jump in since I have been called a person of "low character" even after being called "stupid" and after CC calling another "a piece of sh*t", but did not want to get into another war of words. I thought I would watch him dig his own grave deeper again, which has happened. After launch a litany of verbal assaults on the trail braking thread, he criticizes others for "personal attacks" when they are usually just pointing out the obvious after being provoked (or "attacked").



With 4 DEs in '98 and 3 in '03 I feel good about the fact that in '03 it only took 2 DEs to reach group 2 (out of 2). However, I do more reading than writing on this board because although I feel confident about my driving, I realize that I have much, much, much to learn.

With that being said I would like to go back to a comment that Mark made earlier about concentrating on exit speed after learning the line. I would like for Mark or anyone to elaborate on how that is done. What I mean is, how can you tell where the best point for throttle application is? If you enter too slow, you will have to put on the throttle way to early and too fast is too late. It almost seems to me that entry speed and exit speed would go hand in hand....? I stayed up late last night watching my last DE at Summit and was paying close attention to where my throttle application was and it did seem quite a bit late at times, even with a correct late apex.

Thanks for the help,

Jim

Mark in Baltimore

I think for someone with fewer than five days of track experience, you do way too much talking and not enough high speed driving. Turn off the computer, put away the DAS and sign up for more track time.

Tony, one of my former instructors, is right on the money with his comments. The fact that, with less than five days of track experience, you can even utter the words "pretty damn good" when referencing your driving, is arrogant, and one of the prime reasons you're sitting in the hot seat and feeling defensive. The really good drivers and racers (of which I am not) that I talk to are much more self-effacing and modest about their abilities and know that even if they are the next Hakkinen, there's another Schumacher out there.

Unless, of course, you are the next Schumacher, which to be completely fair, no one here can rightly say that you do not have that potential.

<static ON>

ColorChange

And like the low character person that you are forklift, you are continuing a personal attack by quoting my RESPONSES to the personal attacks that you and others INITIATED. How about you don’t comment about me and I won’t comment about you.

Sam N

Mark,

I'm the next George Costanza of racing. Where do I fit in??

Mike in Chi

" I fully admit that I am not qualified and I want no responsibility. I make these points as an educational discussion, not as preaching as to what people should do. I will rarely make the statement “you should do this”.

"As you can see, you can pull 120 at entry on the carousel and 103 on exit. For kink, you are looking at 146. Yow!
My Countach can only pull 1.0 g's on street tires so I should have been able to get 108 at the carousel but I have not worked up to full speeds yet."

WARNING: Please no one try to pull anything near these speeds through these turns unless you have considerable track experience. If you need a definition of "considerable", this message is meant for you.

forklift

Although I 100% disagree with the statement that myself or any others initiated any attacks, and you have no idea who I am and cannot make that judgement of me, I agree to leave you out of my comments. Especially since you always dig your own grave anyway and I really don't need to point out the obvious.

I wish you well at your 4th DE where you can teach everyone how to drive and argue with them.

Goodbye.

Mark in Baltimore

Sam,

You'll always be master of your domain!

Mike in Chi

Change

"Mike, while I won't challenge you on the track, I certainly will on the slopes! And I’ll buy the beer."


Now that's funny.

I'm really slow when you work in the age factor for NASTAR. Yes, I'm even slower on the slopes than I am on the track.

But I love them both.

HMMMMM I wonder if a NASTAR style handicap system could be worked out for track stuff? Same principles apply. That sounds like a seperate topic

ColorChange

Come on Mark in Baltimore; be a little more honest/fair, please!

I said for someone with for someone with under 5 days of experience. That is a pretty strong condition. Let me quote what I also said:

Here is what I will say, for someone with fewer than 5 days of track experience, I’m pretty damn good and I have the data to prove it. Compared to many of you and most good drivers, do I suck? Yes. Is that fair?

In that same post I said I am a poor driver, I said I suck repeatedly, and you try to take that comment out of context and attack me with it, when I do have the data to prove my highly limited claim. Do you want to see the data and show me where I stink for someone with under 5 days? Come on, be a little more reasonable, and no, I am not the next Schumi. Just a techy geek having fun and learning. And yes, I would love and need the track time. No argument there, I just am not willing to make the sacrifice to take the time.

Mike in Chi

Mark

"You'll always be master of your domain!"

Has the dialogue shifted from braking to grip?

Mark in Baltimore

Mike,

Rubber, lube and slip(pery) angles, my friend.

SundayDriver

Jim,

There is really no set way that I know to 'teach' this. I think it just happens if that is your key thought as you do laps. Stage 1 - line - you can drive as low as 5/10ths and as long as you drive the car out to the track out point, you are learning the line. But you have to pick up the pace to udnerstand why the apex is where it is and the track out point is where it is. As you get comfortable with the line, just change you key thought to "EXit Speed". That is going to induce you to get on the throttle earlier and earlier. When you start running out of exit room, you are there (for that stage).

Frankly, I think that is as far as you should go in a DE environment with a few exceptions. If you have something left at corner entry, you have a chance to miss that car that just spun in front of you. You can steer and brake a bit to stay out of trouble. If the corner is clear, you give it throttle and get all the exit speed. Once you are consistently using all the track (and still on the right line) you are ready for stage 3. But realize that once you start upping entry speed, you are committed to the corner as soon as you turn in. There is not longer any room to go for the brakes or steer without consequences. That is why I don't think this is a good stage in DE's - too much risk to expensive street cars and drivers with only limited safety equipment. But, if you are going to go there you need to pay attention to lap times and exit speeds. As you up the entry speed, you are going to have to be a bit later on throttle. You will likely have a lot of offs at this stage because you will go to throttle where it worked before - but your speed will be higher and with the weight transfer, you will probably understeer off the outside of the turn. You also have to make sure that you don't lose exit speed - that is a clue that you are over-charging the entry. Same for lap times - if they get worse, then you are pushing too much. When I do that, I change my thoughts to "Slow In - Fast Out" to settle myself down.

Back to exit speed - to summarize...
If you simply concentrate on early throttle and maximizing your exit speed, it will happen. Yes, the entry speed will creep up too, but keep the focus on throttle application.

I hope this made sense.

M758

Mark,
Good points about not "pushing" so hard in DE. Anything can happen and your are just judged on you safety and "fun" factory. If you are time trialing or racing then you can push a bit harder. I know that I have made a substantial jump in speed from DE to Racing. Most of it came from maximizing entry speed. In a low hp car I learned that to be fast you have to slow down as little as possible in corner entry. For me if the car feels stable I just might be leaving something on the table. That said however I did find the rest of you comments to be true. In one corner trying to maximize entry speed I got a bit faster on the way in, but then spent the entire transtion from turn in to apex in "whoaaa there" mode trying to get the car around the corner. I could more often then not (not really a very good situation), but it cost me exit speed and therefore time. Later when I backed it off on entry a bit to where it seemed easily controable and safe I actually gained exit speed and got faster lap times.

For a credential reference I have 50+ track days in my 944-spec and completed 40 races in the past 3 years and I still feel like a newbie. (actually I am shocked that I even did 40 races, I just counted and did not realize it was that much. I feels like I just started racing last week sometimes. Great fun and still alot to learn! ... Like LFB..)

forklift

Hi Mark,

Yes it did, thanks. Actually I realize I am in somewhat of a dangerous area right now, in that I feel that I have the line down and my car contol is good (not perfect), now it is slowing increasing speeds.....and now paying attention to early throttle application.

I often read on these boards that the intermediate drivers are the ones most prone to accidents and I would classify myself as that. I think I have the line down, now on to earlier throttle and slowly gaining speed in and out of corners.....which could take a while to get it right. I am not really concerned with late braking points yet.

The fact that this car is not a beater is always on my mind and I think I have a good balance of aggressiveness and common sense. My instructor marked off 8/10ths on most of the laps and I think I am comfortable with that right now, so I won't be pushing too much harder yet. I run about in the middle of the pack in group 2, which suits me fine.

I guess the only way to go faster is to go faster. Just to do it smart and work up gradually. I approach corners with respect and no "offs" so far. I hope to keep that record. Tomorrow I will concentrate on early throttle at Summit.

Any instructors here going to be at VIR pca in two weeks? This will be my first PCA DE....up until now only local DEs at Summit.

Thanks,

Jim

APKhaos

Jim,
There will be a bunch of us PCA Potomac instructors at the Zone 2 VIR event. Chances are you will luuuve VIR - its a great track, with plenty of open spaces except in a few corners. Its a quick track, a long track, and your RSA will be right at home.

At the risk of getting cross threaded, none of us will ask if we can drove your car!