Coochas

Well France is next weekend so even if it stops we’ll all be bitching about something else.

DTMiller

C'mon guys, we've entered the best part of a rennlist thread where an actual expert arrives and is told they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Paul Solk

Well played sir, well played!

C'mon, Lewis locked up his tires into the hairpin, it's totally the same despite the facts presented by someone who actually knows.

It sounds like HAD Seb given up the position voluntarily BEFORE the penalty was enforced and just gone racing they wouldn't have given the penalty and we would have seen some great racing. I wish F1 had the option to order a driver to give up position as well as the 5 second, 10 second and stop/go option...

Professor Helmüt Tester

A "straw man fallacy", to add to the earlier "bandwagon fallacy".

No one here Few here are able to have a dispassionate discussion about actual rules and actual facts. Sigh.

The Race Director can suggest to the team that they give a position back, but does not have the authority to order it. If the team does not give it back, the Race Director will refer it to the Stewards, who will consider the facts and the rules, and come to a decision. During a race, this happens in real time. It generates a flurry of activity.

Currently, there is a lot of "WWCD?" (What would Charlie do ?) discussion. That's not fair to the Michael - the current guy in the hot seat - as it was the Ferrari team & driver that held responsibility for all of this.

No penalty is casually considered.

Everybody knows what's at stake.

Stewards are good with being correct, rather than being popular.

mhm993

it irks me to say this out loud, but Tester is an actual expert on rules.

Circuit Motorsports

All of this is true.

Paul Solk

I'm actually in the minority that I agree a penalty was warranted and understood that a 5 second was the minimum I just wish there was another option but that would have to go to a rules committee and approved by the teams I would imagine. I've said it all along though the Stewards and Race Director only had to get involved because Seb made the mistake. Without that initial event this whole conversation is mute.

hf1

<5%. Similar to a pre-K schoolyard.

Manifold

But most would say that the laws of physics didn't cause Seb to make a mistake which caused him to go into the grass and lose control of his car. Or you could instead argue that everything (including human cognition) follows the laws of physics all the time, so no one is ever at fault for anything they do.

IPSA

His mistake violated the laws of physics , that is why he ended up where he did. Is that in dispute?

DTMiller

Why is there this notion that losing control of the car absolves you of responsibility for what happens next?

Manifold

No, there are no known violations of the laws of physics. The laws of physics dictated that his mistake put him in the grass.

Paul Solk

The only thing he "violated" were track limits, everything that transpired followed the laws of physics perfectly. The one thing I have really wanted to see the whole time is his throttle trace and when he went back to full. It had to be a momentary lift on his part to maintain the momentum he did. To me that indicates how out of control he felt when he got it back on the pavement. I mean kudos to him for not putting in too much input to over correct and put it into the wall which is what I think a lot of people would have done but that doesn't absolve the original cause of the sequence of events.

Thundermoose

I know that line of reasoning never works for me at the black flag station when I do DEs.

thebishman

Thanks for posting here, and for your expertise in presenting the actual rules as agreed to by ALL of the teams!

Bish