PCA Requires H&NR in DE cars w Harness Jan 2019
04-30-2018, 12:26 PM
#62
I do understand this, thanks for checking. I also think a HANS device is a smart idea and use one myself. What I disagree with is the piecemeal ratcheting up of safety requirements without good statistics (at least ones we've all seen). Yes, several drivers have been injured or died where a HANS device could have reduced or perhaps eliminated their injuries. Without wanting to sound insensitive, I question whether the number is significant. Other drivers have been injured or killed despite full-on safety gear. Do we all then stay home, safe from roll-overs, asteroids, and lightning strikes? What is the standard for making these kinds of decisions? I don't think PCA National has one.
As referenced by SnB, you can score a Schroth HANS device for $350 or so if you look hard enough. I have one of those now too.
If that isn't enough, there is this well known video:
Tell me you don't think that rally impact isn't possible at a DE....
-Mike
04-30-2018, 12:42 PM
#63
So the club will cover me if I wad up a students car? Great! How about all the heart ache and mental *** pain I'll get from the students lawyer? Just because the club "covers" me doesn't mean its going to be an easy experience to go through.
There's very little up side from driving a students car, anything I can show them in their car, I can show them in mine. In my car, I have no liability.
Pretty easy choice there...
There's very little up side from driving a students car, anything I can show them in their car, I can show them in mine. In my car, I have no liability.
Pretty easy choice there...
04-30-2018, 12:46 PM
#64
Does anyone know if the new rules include the part they were considering about OEM seats?
I know the national safety committee was planning on not allowing any modifications to the OEM seats. That would mean a Porsche GT car with the full bucket seats would be disqualified if the passenger seat was modified to allow use of a harness. Aftermarket seats would of course be OK. Not sure if this provision made it to the final cut or not.
I know the national safety committee was planning on not allowing any modifications to the OEM seats. That would mean a Porsche GT car with the full bucket seats would be disqualified if the passenger seat was modified to allow use of a harness. Aftermarket seats would of course be OK. Not sure if this provision made it to the final cut or not.
04-30-2018, 12:52 PM
#65
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Holy crap. All the whining here is astounding.
Seems pretty simple: don't like the new rule? Don't run with PCA.
Geez...
Seems pretty simple: don't like the new rule? Don't run with PCA.
Geez...
04-30-2018, 02:59 PM
#66
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Not really whining... Just making the case that this is another reason that folks like me will use to not instruct with PCA. I value PCA, I think its a terrific organization that I want to see thrive. This rule, as written, does not work to that goal, and that concerns me.
Last edited by jscott82; 04-30-2018 at 06:04 PM.
04-30-2018, 06:31 PM
#68
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Motorsport Safety Foundation has a HANS rental program. https://www.motorsport-safety.org/in...race-restraint
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04-30-2018, 07:31 PM
#69
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I'm a libertarian at heart, and don't like being told what to do, but I would be embarrassed to admit that I rode in a car with a 5 point safety harness and no HANS device.
It's like at the recent Lime Rock race where we were debating that the driver's meeting about having one or two warm-up laps before the race because the temps were too cold. Some idiots were against two warm up laps and screaming "let us race". Are you kidding me?! It was 45 degrees and you want to go straight to green after one lap?
Let's stop the macho BS where safety is concerned. If you have a 5 point harness you NEED a HANS device. It's really that simple.
04-30-2018, 08:07 PM
#70
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A hans is the cost of 1-2 tires or a set of brake pads now, ~300 bucks. I bought a spare for passengers. Use this as an opportunity to get a more versatile HNR system that you can use with a 3-point when you need it. I don't think the HNR has to be the exact same design as what you wear in the driver's seat of your car. I won't let anyone ride with me who is not wearing a hans / HNR. Modern cars, even SUVs, are doubling the average kinetic energy on the track compared to 10 years ago.
Although I have enjoyed running with PCA, the constant rule changes have really caused me to pause and ask if it's worth it to instruct for the sheer liability exposure and that's really too bad.
04-30-2018, 08:52 PM
#71
My question is how many regions were consulted in this over this time span?
As previously stated not all regions can afford to have loaners; and what if these that do have loaners are incorrectly sized fitment. Now we open up another can of worms as mentioned above.
And to bring in MSF, which PCA decided not to participate with (left to individual regions) is also not an answer.
As previously stated not all regions can afford to have loaners; and what if these that do have loaners are incorrectly sized fitment. Now we open up another can of worms as mentioned above.
And to bring in MSF, which PCA decided not to participate with (left to individual regions) is also not an answer.
04-30-2018, 10:06 PM
#72
That's very nice of you to have your old HANS device for passengers as you're trying to do what's best for your their safety, but as a risk management professional reading your post set off all kinds of alarm bells. You're opening yourself up to massive liability should something happen. One size does not fit all in this arena and if ANYTHING is not of exacting specification for a passenger, it opens you up to scrutiny.
Although I have enjoyed running with PCA, the constant rule changes have really caused me to pause and ask if it's worth it to instruct for the sheer liability exposure and that's really too bad.
Although I have enjoyed running with PCA, the constant rule changes have really caused me to pause and ask if it's worth it to instruct for the sheer liability exposure and that's really too bad.
There are a limited number of sizes. If it does not fit, then no ride. I did provided the harnesses....which could be total **** as well I suppose. And for that matter, the car is **** too....well, maybe I digress.
I don't see it as about scrutiny or liability. What is safer given the current conditions at a HPDE. If this safety equipment is not safer....then why are we not arguing about that. I'm all for keeping the gun rack in my car if I happen to need it as well, but I don't think we're supposed to leave it in there in case the guns bouncing around the cabin might hurt someone.
Sheeesh.
05-01-2018, 09:02 AM
#73
The Penguin King
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Absolutely. The HNR devices have been PROVEN to improve safety, and have essentially eliminated fatalities that involve BSF from head-on impact while using harnesses. The safety improvement is clear. Yes, the new rule does make operating a DE a little more difficult, but there are ways to deal with it.
05-01-2018, 09:32 AM
#74
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It is a separate initiative that was started well before anything else. In fact, the original mission of MSF, besides promoting race track safety, after Sean’s death.
Simply another resource for those investigating using this safety equipment, without having to make a significant purchase. Nothing else.
I see this new PCA directive as a rather minor inconvenience, and if the cars are already suitably equipped (identical safety equipment roster for right seat), then it should be a simple matter to follow through with the rest (and most important part) of effective occupant protection.
05-01-2018, 10:30 AM
#75
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Now let's talk about some of the really stupid sh*t that PCA National doesn't pay attention to. Tracks with no / inadequate run-off: how many lives could be saved, injuries avoided, cars preserved, if we required FIA quality run-offs at all tracks. Ooops, there goes just about every track in the Northeast: say goodbye to Watkins Glen, Palmer (do you like large rock faces?), Lime Rock, NHMS, Thomson. ,