PCA Requires H&NR in DE cars w Harness Jan 2019
04-29-2018, 08:32 AM
#31
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I guess PCA DE Registrars are going to need to nquire about student's car equipment before assigning an instructor that way they will be sure that pairing is 5/6 point harness equipped cars to an instructor with correct HANS.Still major issue currently are crazy fast stock DE cars with stock belts.
Rich
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04-29-2018, 08:35 AM
#32
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^^
That is what instructors do over here in Europe. I book a lot of 1:1 tuition with pro instructors and they always sit on my passenger seat or actually in the driver seat (mostly for reference setting so that we can compare data inbetween stints). Never sat in an instructor car, they typically don’t even have a sport car as they get paid driving race cars...
Idea of H&NS system grows on me. I have the OEM clubsport cage, 918 buckets and 6-point harness in my Cayman GT4, so HANS not ideal in side impact situations as the seats are no race seats (and race seats are not street legal over here), so will go with a Simpson Hybrid.
That is what instructors do over here in Europe. I book a lot of 1:1 tuition with pro instructors and they always sit on my passenger seat or actually in the driver seat (mostly for reference setting so that we can compare data inbetween stints). Never sat in an instructor car, they typically don’t even have a sport car as they get paid driving race cars...
Idea of H&NS system grows on me. I have the OEM clubsport cage, 918 buckets and 6-point harness in my Cayman GT4, so HANS not ideal in side impact situations as the seats are no race seats (and race seats are not street legal over here), so will go with a Simpson Hybrid.
04-29-2018, 09:17 AM
#34
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sa2015 helmets have the M6 nutwashers installed to accept head and neck restraint anchors but most of them do not have the anchors included
another bug will be that each brand of head and neck restraint has their own proprietary helmet hardware so for example, you cannot use Hans anchors with a Necksgen or a Schroth SHR Flex.
would be a good idea for each region to have a couple helmets equipped with head and neck restraints to use as loaners.
the Schroth SHR Flex or Necksgen would be good alternatives as they are not angle specific. The Hans is angle specific so if you get a student or driver over 200 lb or barrel chested in a porsche, they actually need a hans 30 instead of a model 20 which is the hans III design. the wrong device will be uncomfortable if it's the incorrect angle.
04-29-2018, 10:07 AM
#35
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Is PCA going to specify which H&NR to use? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a number of H&NR's don't address the increased risk of lateral neck injuries introduced when employing 5/6-point harnesses without a HALO seat.
04-29-2018, 10:27 AM
#36
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HANS
04-29-2018, 10:28 AM
#37
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Why? Please do not take this as challenging your knowledge or experience, I am just trying to understand.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
04-29-2018, 11:35 AM
#38
Originally Posted by JTT
Why? Please do not take this as challenging your knowledge or experience, I am just trying to understand.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
At intermediate level driving right side with instructor or experienced driver can be very helpful.
04-29-2018, 01:34 PM
#39
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Why? Please do not take this as challenging your knowledge or experience, I am just trying to understand.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
Personally I am okay driving a student's car for orientation laps but beyond that I generally won't drive their car in an active session unless they have track insurance and what I am showing them is unique to their car (had a student with a Audi S6 this past weekend, the car has understeer issues that he needed to understand). Unlike the instructors with full cage race cars I still have my 3 point as an option so I can take a student out and show them more general things.
04-29-2018, 01:44 PM
#40
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H&N
Good - As an instructor I have been so tired of telling students with full belts to get a HANS only to be told "maybe for Christmas". I tell them its not a luxury. Get one or you may get hurt or worse when the only thing moving with a 6 point is your head. Its just common sense. And apparently that was not enough.
But JSCOTT82 makes a good point and I don't know a sensible answer to that one.
But JSCOTT82 makes a good point and I don't know a sensible answer to that one.
Don't know if this has already been posted here. If so mods please delete.
"PCA Chief Driving Instructors and Region Officials,
The number one priority of PCA's HPDE Program is track safety. A core belief in the DE program is that a person can purchase a stock Porsche and take it to the track for an HPDE weekend, after an appropriate tech inspection of course.
Some people choose to modify their cars to increase performance and others to increase safety. A popular modification made to track cars is the addition of a multi-point harness system. Starting January 1, 2019, the DE Minimum Standards will be expanded to state that if a driver uses a harness system, he or she will ALSO be required to utilize a head and neck restraint system, commonly referred to as a HANS device.
A head and neck restraint device is an integral part of the harness system. Because the rule of equal restraint always applies, if a driver uses a harness system there must also be a harness system available and used by the passenger. Thus, both the driver and passenger will be required to use a HANS device. We highly encourage all DE participants to not wait until 2019 to comply with this new minimum standard. Head and neck restraint system devices are now more affordable and easily purchased online.
The DE Committee's decision was made over the course of two years after careful review of options, conversations with DE participants and discussion of a variety of perspectives. Please pass on this information to your DE drivers and instructors as soon as possible to avoid any confusion.
As a reminder, members of the DE Committee can be found here: https://www.pca.org/national-driver-education-committee
Thank you for all your time and effort to make your region's DE program a safe and successful one. If you have feedback, please let me know!
Catch you in the Curves!
John Krecek
Great Plains Region - Porsche Club of America
Chief Driving Instructor
PCA National DE Committee Chair"
"PCA Chief Driving Instructors and Region Officials,
The number one priority of PCA's HPDE Program is track safety. A core belief in the DE program is that a person can purchase a stock Porsche and take it to the track for an HPDE weekend, after an appropriate tech inspection of course.
Some people choose to modify their cars to increase performance and others to increase safety. A popular modification made to track cars is the addition of a multi-point harness system. Starting January 1, 2019, the DE Minimum Standards will be expanded to state that if a driver uses a harness system, he or she will ALSO be required to utilize a head and neck restraint system, commonly referred to as a HANS device.
A head and neck restraint device is an integral part of the harness system. Because the rule of equal restraint always applies, if a driver uses a harness system there must also be a harness system available and used by the passenger. Thus, both the driver and passenger will be required to use a HANS device. We highly encourage all DE participants to not wait until 2019 to comply with this new minimum standard. Head and neck restraint system devices are now more affordable and easily purchased online.
The DE Committee's decision was made over the course of two years after careful review of options, conversations with DE participants and discussion of a variety of perspectives. Please pass on this information to your DE drivers and instructors as soon as possible to avoid any confusion.
As a reminder, members of the DE Committee can be found here: https://www.pca.org/national-driver-education-committee
Thank you for all your time and effort to make your region's DE program a safe and successful one. If you have feedback, please let me know!
Catch you in the Curves!
John Krecek
Great Plains Region - Porsche Club of America
Chief Driving Instructor
PCA National DE Committee Chair"
04-29-2018, 04:40 PM
#41
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I have no dog in this hunt.....but it seems like it could be a good sponsorship opportunity for helmet & HNR suppliers or manufacturers. Provide a handful of units to the regions with big stickers on them advertising the brand of equipment or the supplier itself. Good chance that students who are in the market for upgrading equipment would be heavily influenced and drive preference.
04-29-2018, 08:03 PM
#42
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I don't drive students cars, no way, no how. Too much liability if something happens. Anything can happen on track and I'm quite sure I don't want to pay for a students wadded up car.
04-29-2018, 08:16 PM
#43
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In order to drive in my car, which I have always preferred, they will have to borrow a HANS device as I have only 5 point belts in the race car. If I bring my 944 it still has the three points but also 5 points installed.
04-29-2018, 08:25 PM
#44
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The issue with driving students cars, for me anyway, goes beyond wadding it up. Just the little things, like hitting a bird or chipping the windshield, could be blamed on me. I don't go there.
I knew a guy that hired a pro to drive his car, then bad mouthed him that drove it too "hard".
I knew a guy that hired a pro to drive his car, then bad mouthed him that drove it too "hard".