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Very sad to hear this. Condolences to all involved, and I hope the instructor makes a full recovery.
Though we don't know the details of what happened in this case, the question of the safety of the track should always be asked. Given that crashes are inevitable, why did a crash lead to FATALITY? Many tracks have substantial safety deficiencies because their safety features were selected without any real expertise, and track owners sometimes avoid bringing in such expertise because their liability could increase if they don't implement consultant recommendations. This isn't speculation, I've witnessed these issues firsthand on numerous occasions. More here:
The fatality/injury rates can't be zero, but they can certainly be significantly lower if the proper steps are taken. IMO, DE isn't inherently unsafe overall, but that shouldn't be an excuse to not make safety improvements where we can.
Very sad to hear this. Condolences to all involved, and I hope the instructor makes a full recovery.
Though we don't know the details of what happened in this case, the question of the safety of the track should always be asked. Given that crashes are inevitable, why did a crash lead to FATALITY?
IMO, DE isn't inherently unsafe overall, but that shouldn't be an excuse to not make safety improvements where we can.
Hope so, too.
It's speculation, but a FATALITY may have lead to a crash, IMO.
Agreed. Fully.
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Just something to ponder. According to Google Earth Pro, the distance from the Turn 1 turn-in point at Roebling Road (on a straight line) to the tire barrier is 320 feet. Assuming the Porsche C4 was traveling somewhere in the range of 110 mph (a typical speed for a Blue student at Roebling), the instructor had roughly 2 seconds before impact (160 feet per second). So, before you start running through all the scenarios of grabbing the emergency brake...or yanking the wheel...or forcing a downshift... just count to TWO (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, BOOM). At that speed, we're just passengers.
As an instructor, I never thought I would have the mental clarity or reaction speed to grab a steering wheel in an emergency situation. But when a student of mine froze going into Turn 1 at Sebring, I was able to steer the car safely away from danger. But Sebring Turn 1 has a huge amount of run-off. Not Roebling.
This is horrible news. condolences to the family of the driver. In these types of situations, it is not uncommon for the instructor to assist, and because of the speeds involved, not much steering input is needed to make huge corrections . (as long as the student is not fighting the assist) But, there is a factor that is often overlooked, in how the throttle is controlled. Maybe the instructor needs to have his hand on or have access to, an ignition kill switch for these types of emergencies. this wouldnt address all dangerous situations, but it might help for many of them. maybe we need the old school dual steering wheel instruction race cars. i dont know of too many flight instructors , that would ever go up in a plane with a student if he didnt have a yoke for his control as well. i dont see how this is much different than driving a car at such high speeds.
Very sad to hear, but i hope some good can come out of it to save others from this horrible outcome.
Tough to reach the ignition on any Porsche (other than the old school front engine water pumpers) from the right hand seat given that they're on the left side of the steering wheel...
Just something to ponder. According to Google Earth Pro, the distance from the Turn 1 turn-in point at Roebling Road (on a straight line) to the tire barrier is 320 feet. Assuming the Porsche C4 was traveling somewhere in the range of 110 mph (a typical speed for a Blue student at Roebling), the instructor had roughly 2 seconds before impact (160 feet per second). So, before you start running through all the scenarios of grabbing the emergency brake...or yanking the wheel...or forcing a downshift... just count to TWO (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, BOOM). At that speed, we're just passengers.
As an instructor, I never thought I would have the mental clarity or reaction speed to grab a steering wheel in an emergency situation. But when a student of mine froze going into Turn 1 at Sebring, I was able to steer the car safely away from danger. But Sebring Turn 1 has a huge amount of run-off. Not Roebling.
I thought I read where the instructor managed to grad the steering wheel to avoid hitting another car.
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Thank you and know that all instructors will appreciate an elevated priority in discussing this potential scenario. Suncoast runs an EXCELLENT program and has for many years.
As a right seat instructor, I've experienced TWICE the left seat occupant "freezing up," becoming unresponsive to my commands or good sense, but fully conscious and with their right foot fully depressing the throttle as we were approaching fast corners (and in both instances, we left the road despite my exhortations, physical intervention and switching off of the ignition), this can and does happen...
That would not have been possible in this car in the time frame mentioned by PLNewman above due to it being on the left side as well as trying to avoid hitting another car at the same time.
That would not have been possible in this car in the time frame mentioned by PLNewman above due to it being on the left side as well as trying to avoid hitting another car at the same time.
I wasn't suggesting that, in this particular instance. I have done that in cars with accessible switches. Twice...
This is honestly why I have been, and continue to drastically scale back my instructing over the past few years. It's just not worth it to me anymore. It's just a numbers game. If you are instructing, it means you are on track twice as much, and half that time with someone with a higher propensity for mistakes. 10 years ago I was fine with the risks, but I've paid it forward at this point and don't feel as obligated as I did back then.
Thank you and know that all instructors will appreciate an elevated priority in discussing this potential scenario. Suncoast runs an EXCELLENT program and has for many years.
As a right seat instructor, I've experienced TWICE the left seat occupant "freezing up," becoming unresponsive to my commands or good sense, but fully conscious and with their right foot fully depressing the throttle as we were approaching fast corners (and in both instances, we left the road despite my exhortations, physical intervention and switching off of the ignition), this can and does happen...
I am going into my second year as a PCA instructor. One of the things I was taught was NEVER touch the driver's wheel.
Last fall I had a guy who started checking out on me - I would give him an instruction and it would take him time to respond. He was overwhelmed and I told him to pit. Right as that happened we were approaching the uphill at Lime Rock and he wasn't turning the wheel enough. We were definitely going to hit the wall. Without thinking I pulled the wheel and we barely made the turn - the flagger winced - that's how close it was. We pitted after that.
We spoke about what happened and I discussed it with other instructors. Off the record it appears that saving your own life, and student's life, trumps certain rules.
Funny thing is next event I had the same driver and he was completely fine.
We spoke about what happened and I discussed it with other instructors. Off the record it appears that saving your own life, and student's life, trumps certain rules.
^^THIS^^
Fact.
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
Funny thing is next event I had the same driver and he was completely fine.
Have had that happen, too. Doubly scary... Who will you get, next time?
My brother I’m law instructs at motorcycle DE events, some of which are at RRR.. They do lead follow. Perhaps that approach could be implemented in our hobby? Then when students progress to a certain point, if they want to spend the extra $ to improve further, data analysis could be the next level of instruction, utilizimg pro coaches. I’ve been out of instructing for a few years for a few reasons, one of which is safety concerns.
I am going into my second year as a PCA instructor. One of the things I was taught was NEVER touch the driver's wheel.
Last fall I had a guy who started checking out on me - I would give him an instruction and it would take him time to respond. He was overwhelmed and I told him to pit. Right as that happened we were approaching the uphill at Lime Rock and he wasn't turning the wheel enough. We were definitely going to hit the wall. Without thinking I pulled the wheel and we barely made the turn - the flagger winced - that's how close it was. We pitted after that.
We spoke about what happened and I discussed it with other instructors. Off the record it appears that saving your own life, and student's life, trumps certain rules.
Funny thing is next event I had the same driver and he was completely fine.
Grab the wheel whenever it makes sense re. impending doom. Been there, done that.
The problem with dogma is that there are always exceptions. Better to think and spare one's own life rather than be a slave to policy.
I am going into my second year as a PCA instructor. One of the things I was taught was NEVER touch the driver's wheel.
Last fall I had a guy who started checking out on me - I would give him an instruction and it would take him time to respond. He was overwhelmed and I told him to pit. Right as that happened we were approaching the uphill at Lime Rock and he wasn't turning the wheel enough. We were definitely going to hit the wall. Without thinking I pulled the wheel and we barely made the turn - the flagger winced - that's how close it was. We pitted after that.
We spoke about what happened and I discussed it with other instructors. Off the record it appears that saving your own life, and student's life, trumps certain rules.
Funny thing is next event I had the same driver and he was completely fine.
I personally disagree with that rule, and have seen another PCA region specifically teach and practice guiding the wheel from the right seat. Makes no sense to dismiss a potentially useful option for providing input to where the car goes.
That said, I suggest that it be standard policy to talk with the student before going on track that you may put your hands on the wheel from the right seat, in two situations:
- To help teach the line, in which case you will typically announce in advance to the student that you're going to help steer the car, and that the student's hands should also stay on the wheel.
- In an emergency, in which case it's unlikely that you'll be telling the student in advance that you're going to do it.
02-12-2018, 03:16 PM
