mark kibort

I appreciate your perspective. however, you are forgetting how long i have done this and the level of drivers ive worked with, both beginners and advanced. I think i have a pretty good perspective, in that ive seen it all, and always registering what might be done in the future to avoid the bad things or near bad thing ive seen.

we might be talking passed each other on the situations.

1. I agree. the red car prototype at road atlanta, if the rules dictated point by, shouldnt have passed, but in open groups, i think a full head of steam prototype that is thinking "point by point by point by" that never comes, could be an incident as the lack of point by and following the rules creates a high rate change of speed to brake and comply. (agree?)

2. I never said the op should have not waited on original video. i said very clearly that he shouldnt be upset that he had to wait and that the point by was late. That is commonly seen for the reasons i clearly point out. that's why it happensed TWICE in the same turn.
why would you say, that its "not the way it should be done"?

3. your expectation of the white ferrari to wait for the point by, is understandable, but you were not "3 wide" not even close and he went by you safely on the right anyway. sure, he broke the rules, but you should have pointed him by. there was room , space and time, for that. (and yes i agree, the polite thing for the pointing-by-miata" would have been to lift early, to let you by. still a word of advice. stay closer to his door. dont be so wide. you dont need the entire track width to make a pass. just an observation. you could have done the point by and the pass all in that straight , very easily and safely without going 3 wide.

"concepts passed on from racing are not relevant" is a misnomer. racing contains the worst of the worst circumstances. how we deal with them on the track, carries over to DE in many cases. Its Ironic. i remember when i went to a NASA DE because i needed an event to partake in a Time attack event. it was funny. i had 3-4 close calls in the first session. It was entertaining and fun, but amazing how hard everyone was driving and how over the edge everyone was. heck, in my race groups with SCCA comparatively, im bored! there is no racing or close calls until the RACE! why is that? its because of the type of driving we all do when NOT racing... it should be similar to DE and those are the things I'm talking about. why point bys should be encouraged, not mandatory. drive the line and be predictable.

my comments were two fold. calm the OP regarding what he saw in the video as far as a late point by and let him know there is a reason for it and to relax. second, to voice my opinion of "mandatory " pointby in an open group and situations where i dont think it makes safety sense.
thats it.. nothing more to see here!

Dr911

Respects to Mr. Kibort who I don't know personally but certainly admire how capably he beats the wrong dead horse to a pulp with such consistency and perfection.

With thanks for adding important and valuable discussion matter to my friends Mike, David and Peter for their efforts to avoid the inevitable carnage of this thread I offer this word of encouragement:

Ritter v4.0

"my comments were two fold. calm the OP regarding what he saw in the video as far as a late point by and let him know there is a reason for it and to relax."

It's hard to convey emotion over the interweb, but as I stated about 8 pages ago, I was perfectly calm at the time and still am. It was more of an observation than rant or vilification. Neither drover did anything wrong. They didn't even need to give a point, but. . . IMHO if they were going to give one, despite the thread title, sooner would have been better (for us all).
It's 3-4 cars wide on the back straight at RA and you have time to send a tweet. 10a/10b is 2 cars at a pinch and things get busy- you need both hands on the wheel.


Whether racing or at a DE (irrespective of run group), while rules seem to vary from organization to organization, what should not vary is situational awareness and respect and consideration for other drivers (faster and slower). It's not just about killing a lap time- it's about safety.

ExMB

BINGO

ProCoach

+2!

dgrobs

OK, we are on page 10, so I believe it's now time for me to post in this most historic thread, and that's just what I'm doing.

Carry on.....

mark kibort

Actually, you are right. my comments were made in response to others that thought that "person" should be spoken too or "reported". Look, you are comfortable. in a lighting fast car, and running up on a beginner in a street car that can see 140mph on a race track in an entirely different light. I hope you understand that THIS is my point. They can get a little tunnel vision, OR, really are concerned with what they will have to deal with , by you making a pass near a two wide section of turn 10a/b, and /or subsequently the great unknown, coming down from that speed to a 40mph turn. so, safety is number 1 and i totally agree with that point.
With all due respect "Dr", did you read anything i wrote? Did you understood why i wrote it and what i said?
im curious the mental intellect or physiological disposition of anyone that would want to post something like you posted.
youre insulting me because you feel bad about yourself? You dont agree? i cant imagine posting that about someone here , unprovoked. last i looked this was a discussion board.

Jabs1542

^^^ This is it ^^^ At almost every driver's meeting it is encouraged to suck it up and give passes on the straight so everyone can get back on pace at the turn. However it seems you get the occasional drag race to the corner (which can be fun if the drivers know and trust each other - but that's a different topic), or you get the person that suddenly wakes up at the end of the straight and discovers there's a car on their *** - this is a situational awareness problem. Let's also accept the fact that Cup cars run in the Red / Advanced run group and ALL of those drivers should have mastered situational awareness way before they got put in that group. This is the crusk of the safety concern.

As for running with Cup cars and prototypes, I like to set them up in advance so they can pass at speed. The capability of these cars with a good driver is humbling and awesome at the same time.

docwyte

A lot of it depends on the track. I had a situation two years ago when a Cup Car blew past me when I wasn't expecting it, in a part of the track where I didn't want him to be.

Due to the elevation and twisties in that part of the track, I had no visibility of him until he was right behind me going up the hill. I needed to complete the turn, then track right to set up for a hairpin left at the top of the hill.

My plan was to track right, then point him to the inside. Instead he didn't wait and passed me on the right, as I was beginning to track right. Luckily I saw him and was able to hold the car left.

Bad stuff happens. Its incumbent for the trailing car to make sure their pass is safe and predictable...

zmon

THIS!! Situational awareness and safety.

in the videos its the situational awareness part... some of the comments in this thread are surprising. the closing speed of the car does not matter. this is the top run group of this organization and its a HUGE STRAIGHT AWAY. they should have seen him ages before he got there and had their hand out the window. its not about it being a race car at a DE, could have very well been a street car going the same speed.

zmon

they are not beginners... they are in the advanced point anywhere group... this is on them, they had terrible situational awareness. (so it seemed...)

mark kibort

again, you were not in the car. it's point by for two reasons. ONE for the comfort of the lead car and TWO, to safely direct the passing event.

regardless of the experience. you see a cup car approaching, you or i would point by well before, or at the braking point. SOME, drivers , even "advanced "drivers , in a PURE street car, might feel more comfortable being passed at the end of the zone. again, it happened twice in the same spot.. that's a clue, right? From looking at the video, the closure rate was not that great, the cup car ran up to the very stock looking BMW, and had to wait for the point by at the apex of the turn, where the BMW took a polite , wide line for that to happen. I see nothing wrong. many street cars can be a handful at top speed approaching a turn. approaching race cars should be aware that they might not see them in this type of section of track.

If i had a dollar for the RACE cars with Racing drivers that didnt see me or give me a point by, I would be driving a cup car.

as a further note, its very possible on the red prototype pass on the (wrong side as directed) talked about later, that the over the roof point by could have been mistaken for a "arm out the window" point by. his closure was so dramatic that he probably saw movement, took it for a left pointby .
Its why i made the comment about it. in race cars its never done, because in most cases YOU cant do it due to cages, nets and seat restrictions, so its never expected. jsut a safety opinion........ find for pure street cars, but i think dangerous for mixed race cars and street cars, especially prototypes and street cars in a DE.

LuigiVampa

I think we can get another ten pages out of this thread if we start debating the true meaning of the blue passing flag.

We can do it!

Veloce Raptor

One's ability to complete a pass on track entirely depends on what oil they use.

007DT

I thought that flag meant the car behind you has more Torque...